House of Commons Hansard #38 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was benefits.

Topics

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Nic Leblanc Bloc Longueuil, QC

Mr. Speaker, I know that members of the Bloc Quebecois are joining together in defending this style of management, which goes against the interests of the people of Quebec in particular.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Jean H. Leroux Bloc Shefford, QC

And of Canada as well.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Nic Leblanc Bloc Longueuil, QC

And of Canada as well. But I, Mr. Speaker, am more interested in Quebec and not as concerned about what is happening outside Quebec.

In my opinion, employment insurance is a kind of smoke screen put up by the government to show that its proposal will create more jobs than good old unemployment insurance. When one knows that the purpose of manpower training is to create jobs, one realizes that the federal government has no real intention of withdrawing from this area.

I submit to the House that this bill allows the government not to create jobs but to create a new tax. In fact, the secretary of state responsible for finance stated a few weeks ago here in this House that the new UI fund will be much bigger than in the past, since premiums are higher and benefits lower. This fund will grow significantly. There is talk of billions of dollars within five years. The secretary of state even said that this fund would be used to reduce the deficit. This would make it a new tax, would it not? Let us be clear. We-at least in the Bloc Quebecois-are intelligent enough to understand this kind of thing.

The secretary of state added that premiums were now higher so we can meet UI needs during hard times. May I remind members that we are living in hard times. I wonder how much the government will collect during good times. It should be quite a haul.

The free trade agreement with the U.S. and the rapid technological changes of the last few years have turned employability and job requirements upside down.

This means we must act very quickly in setting rules so that people can upgrade their skills in light of the new requirements resulting from technological change and free trade with the U.S. and other countries. This bill, this new UI reform, does not really address these issues.

The other reason I disagree with this bill is that the Liberal government has never had much credibility, especially now, and we have a hard time believing in it. I was here in this House when there was a UI reform proposal and the Liberals were in opposition. I heard Sheila Copps and the "rat pack" condemning that UI reform proposal roundly. Yet, unlike today's reform, the one back then had it all over this one, as far as being just and fair is concerned.

For these reasons, I think the government has no credibility whatsoever to manage the system. As employers and unions have said in the past, I say to the House that the government should partially privatize the management of UI and manpower training. A private UI system, like any private insurance company, should manage the UI fund, which, in fact, comes entirely from employers and employees.

The board of directors would manage the system, and part of the training would be managed jointly by management and union representatives.

Let me explain why we should proceed that way. Given that only employers and employees contribute to the UI fund, they should be responsible for managing it. This only makes sense. There would be much less waste, there would be much less grandstanding. Like any other insurance, it would be aimed strictly at protecting employees and meeting their needs.

Here is another reason. If we make employees and employers more responsible, there is a chance they will manage everything better, otherwise they would have to bear the consequences and be forced to collect higher premiums.

Currently, there are employers who tend to lay off employees too quickly. The minute something happens, they say: "No problem. We will let them go. The unemployment insurance system will look after them".

If an employee misbehaves, if he is late a few times, if his wife is sick and he does not show up for work, his employer is sometimes quick to fire him. This, unfortunately, often happens too easily and too quickly. Why? It is because employers count on the government or the unemployment insurance system to look after employees who are laid off.

The same is true in the case of an employee who decides to not go to work because he feels he does not have enough holidays, because he is a little tired, or for any other trivial reason, or an employee who does not work well and does not care because "if I lose my job, I can claim UI benefits".

By contrast, if the employee and the employer had to meet all the costs involved, they would be more responsible, if only to avoid having to pay increased premiums. And if they did have to pay more, they would be more careful in the future. Indeed, an employer would then think twice before firing an employee for a trivial reason.

So, we could adjust more quickly and effectively if employees and employers could manage a private unemployment insurance fund, as well as part of the manpower training required to truly meet the needs of businesses, given the current and rapid technological changes, and given the free competition, particularly in North-America but also worldwide. This would result in an improved economy, something that is necessary, considering that way too many people are unemployed and live on welfare.

For these reasons, I feel that we should soon set aside the unemployment insurance program and replace it with an insurance similar to any other type of insurance, whether it is private medical care insurance, life insurance, etc., particularly since unemployment insurance meets a daily need.

Again, for these reasons, I strongly suggest to the minister that, if he wants a true unemployment insurance reform, he should withdraw from this program and give employers and employees the responsibility of managing their own unemployment insurance fund.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Réginald Bélair Liberal Cochrane—Superior, ON

Mr. Speaker, I too am pleased to speak to Bill C-12, which will surely have an impact in rural communities of Canada and in a riding like mine.

I would like to focus on two topics: seasonal workers and the number of hours they work, and the monitoring program that will be provided, first for the implementation of this new act and then, after its implementation, for evaluation of the results of this true reform of the unemployment insurance system.

The old Unemployment Insurance Act had not been revamped for 25 years. Of course with changing times and an economy which

is taking some very different turns making it very different from what it used to be, it was a must for the Government of Canada to modernize the act.

Thousands of Canadians today are working long, hard hours without protection at all under the existing UI program. Why? Because they are working those hours for different employers and as far as UI is concerned, those hours do not count. Workers cannot get insurance unless they work at least 15 hours per week for a single employer. That is under the old system.

The new employment insurance bill changes that. It bases eligibility on hours worked and not on weeks worked. Whether a person works 36 hours a week for one employer or two or more employers makes no difference. An hour worked is an hour worked.

For example, seasonal workers often work long hours during peak season. Under this EI bill, about 270,000 workers will receive an additional three weeks of benefits because they will now be credited for all the hours in weeks they could not have used as qualifying weeks under the old system. It is a simple common sense change which is long overdue. Work patterns are changing in this new economy, which will be the second part of my presentation.

Bill C-12 is a result of a lengthy and inclusive consultation process. The government listened to what Canadians had to say about income support for unemployed workers and the kind of employment benefits that would help people get back to work. EI is indeed a result of this.

The government also relied on substantial amounts of research. Experts have looked at all aspects of how the old UI system worked. They know it can affect the behaviour of employers and workers in ways Canadians do not accept any more. It can lead people to turn down available work. It can lead employers to cycle people in and out of jobs. It is not because people do not want to work but because the system does not always work well.

This new bill is designed to reward work effort. It strengthens work incentives and insurance principles. It also ensures fairness by ensuring an adequate income for those in need. We are talking about those people who make less than $26,000. They will receive a supplement.

Research gives us good reason to believe that the EI approach will be successful. People who have criticized the bill have not been able to point to the same kind of thorough, objective analysis. Now we will go a step further with a thorough, vibrant process designed to tell us if our expectations are being met in practice, if behaviours are changing as much as we expect or even more.

We will look at how the new system works in a dozen communities chosen to represent a range of labour market environments all across Canada, that is, towns with different workplaces, disciplines and domains which will ensure a good cross-section of employees and employers and the kind of work they do for a more precise analysis. The Employment Insurance Commission will do its own research to monitor how individuals, employers, communities and local economies are adapting to the new Employment Insurance Act. We will see those results annually. Surveys of individuals, employers and community representatives will provide a third monitoring approach.

These processes will give us the required feedback to adjust the program if the evidence shows that we need to. The commitment to monitor the impact of EI is yet another example of the government's goal for a system that is fair and effective in every sense of the term.

I am pleased to take part in the debate and especially to speak in favour of seasonal workers who, in the past, did not fully benefit from the unemployment insurance system as it had been established. Many people were working long hours, but for short periods. This meant that they did not have the required number of weeks, but this new employment insurance legislation will deal precisely with this serious problem since, after July 1, the date this new act will come into force, every hour worked will count for unemployment insurance purpose. That will benefit some 270,000 Canadians. It is extremely important that this figure be clearly pointed out in the House.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Bloc

René Canuel Bloc Matapédia—Matane, QC

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank the hon. member for Mercier, as well as my colleagues from Lévis and Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup, for the excellent work they did on this issue. Never before, during the last two years and a half, have we put so much work into a bill. Of course, we worked hard on other pieces of legislation, but particularly on this one. We did so for two main reasons. First, this legislation affects all the citizens from coast to coast, and especially the people in Quebec. Second, Bill C-12 goes directly after the poor and the destitute.

That is why the Bloc Quebecois has focused all of its efforts to try to reason with the government. We used some very solid arguments. I will not go over them again, we have mentioned them often enough. We have shown that this is not a good reform proposal. Today, I want to try to reach the hearts of my colleagues, and I hope they have some compassion left. In a democracy, the people are represented by those they chose to elect. But they have taken to the streets.

They do not want a mini-reform, they want this employment insurance bill, as it is called, to be completely withdrawn. The people who have taken to the streets are not beer drinkers, not professional agitators and certainly not cowards. Quite the opposite, these people are responsible citizens. But mostly, although these people want to work, they cannot find work year round. These are outstanding citizens. Some people in my riding and elsewhere have heard of Nelson Pilote, from Saint-Alexandre-des-Lacs, who is a tree harvester. In the summertime, he gets up at 4 a.m., brings

his chain saw with him to the forest and works until 5 or 6 p.m. He works hard. He has a nice family, five young children.

While he receives UI benefits, from the premiums he and his employer paid, he does not do any moonlighting. What does he do instead? Volunteer work. He coaches hockey and several other sports. He teaches young children and gives them a fresh outlook on life. He is not necessarily a PQ or a sovereignist partisan, but he puts his heart into it and he wants to live a decent life.

In Amqui, he gathered, not by himself, of course, but with the help of a few unions, 5,000 people, who came to demonstrate and ask for the withdrawal of Bill C-12 now before the House.

Also, I have a friend who is a bishop in Gaspé. He is not involved in politics either. He too joined the workers to ask, on behalf of his flock, that this bill be withdrawn because he knows that in Gaspé as in Matane and in Mont-Joli as well as in Amqui, people want to work but it is not so simple. Come and try to create jobs in our region! You will see that it is more complicated than you think.

Members are also aware that forestry jobs are the least costly to create. The Canadian government cut its $6.5 million a year grant to the East Plan, which created jobs, good jobs. They cut it. They also want to cut funding for the Maurice Lamontagne Institute, where year after year researchers make discoveries that are published throughout the world.

It seems to me that the government is cutting funding everywhere: for researchers who give hope to the young and for the most disadvantaged people, the poorest of the poor. And for women in our areas, especially the rural areas. Women who have seasonal jobs will suffer as well as seasonal and part-time workers.

I do not want to go over all the arguments again. Members know quite well that in our areas as elsewhere in Quebec and in the Atlantic Provinces, it is almost impossible for someone who enters the workforce to accumulate 910 hours of work. Only a few will be able to do it.

Yes, I appeal to my colleagues. Let us hope that our arguments will at least touch their hearts, if not their minds.

It is not easy for people who want to work and who will no longer be entitled to this employment insurance, that back home we call poverty insurance, because that is right where it will lead. Someone said to me: "Do you know that if this employment insurance comes to our regions, people will be worse off in a few years than they were during the '30s"? They will turn to welfare, of course, but they do not want to. People want to work.

You know, it is very hard on a person's morale to rely on welfare. I have known many men with families who, having lost their jobs and been on unemployment insurance for a year, have then unsuccessfully sought work and become completely discouraged. The whole family was affected. It is extremely hard for the children, and it then becomes society's problem. It is not just the individual's problem, the family's problem, but the community's or society's problem.

This is why I am appealing to my colleagues. There is still some time left. They can still vote against Bill C-12. I ask them with all my heart to think about their constituents. There were demonstrations in the Atlantic provinces as well. If we want to represent our constituents properly, how can we not listen to what they have to say? I find this tragic.

Of course, they can always say that if we do not listen to them, two years, six months down the road, they will throw us out. As you well know, Madam Speaker, in four or five years, a government in power can do a lot of stupid things, and you know that they have done their share. They are about to do it again. I think that this will be the worst yet, a terrible mistake, and it is workers, young people, women, in other words, the poorest members of our society, who will suffer the consequences. It is not just the individual who is affected, as I was saying earlier, but families, parishes, all of society. When apolitical people say that it does not make sense, I ask my colleagues across the way to sit up and take note.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Brien Bloc Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, I, too, am pleased to take part in this debate on Bill C-12 to express a viewpoint which resembles that of my colleagues, of course, and also that of a lot of people in the riding of Témiscamingue. In fact, next Saturday, people will hold a demonstration in the streets of Rouyn-Noranda to show their opposition to this legislation, which will affect many of them.

We have to ask ourselves some questions. This legislation is called the Employment Insurance Act. That is awfully close to being false representation because it does not deal with employment in any way. The government wanted to change the name of the old unemployment insurance plan to show that it was proposing a reform involving significant changes. There are two ways to criticize this bill. It can be criticized for what is included in it, and for what was left out of it. Let me say at the outset that nobody can oppose the idea of modernizing our social programs, of adapting them and adjusting them to the reality of the 21st century.

I will have the opportunity, in the second part of my speech, to talk about the measures that could have been included in this bill to undertake a true unemployment insurance reform for purposes other than those of the finance minister. But even that is not very clear.

The first question I ask myself is, what is the real purpose of this reform? We know that after the first cuts made in the 1994-95 budget, there was a $5 billion surplus in the unemployment insurance fund at the end of the year.

There must be no mistake, the fund is not in a state of catastrophe. There are revenues of $5 billion more than there are expenses for unemployment insurance. Obviously, people will say there were years when there was a deficit. If we look cumulatively at it, since its inception and as we know it today, the unemployment insurance fund has a surplus of about $1 billion. In 1996, another $5 billion will be added to this surplus.

It cannot be said that the unemployment insurance plan was in a catastrophic state. However, the Minister of Finance made sure, in all sorts of ways, that he could take out this surplus and use it to lower his deficit. With most of his other reforms not giving any results, apart from his cuts in transfer payments, the minister decided to use the surplus in the unemployment insurance fund to provide a certain amount of revenue to reduce his deficit in the short term.

People have not got the time to put a magnifying glass to every government program. However, the unemployment insurance fund is supported by contributions from employers and employees. The Minister of Finance puts no money from the consolidated fund into it. It is paid for by employers and employees. So, to use this surplus is to steal from the unemployment insurance fund, it is to impose a sort of tax on employment. If that is what they want to do, let them say so. Let them cut contributions and add an employment tax to pay stubs. Let them explain the real things, because that is what is happening.

We could discuss the surplus for a long time, but I also want to speak of one measure in particular which goes against the present trend. Many people wonder about the way the job market is divided up. Many workers do a lot of overtime, while many people who could work are unable to find a job. How could the work be divided more fairly? Such a thing will not happen unless the government takes a number of courageous steps, sending out very clear signals that this is what it will support.

In this bill there is one measure which reduces maximum insurable earnings from $42,000 to $39,000. Concretely, this means that when people earning more than that do overtime work, the employee and the employer-but particularly the employer-will not have to contribute anything to unemployment insurance.

Put yourself in the employer's shoes. You have a job to be done, and you have a choice between paying a new employee, who will have to pay into the unemployment insurance fund-as will you-and paying someone who already works for you and for whom you will not have to make a contribution, if the work is done in overtime. If all of the social responsibilities of employers are defined in this way, there is a very clear message: Get people to do overtime, do not hire anyone new, it is more cost-effective that way.

The objective of people in business-legitimately and understandably so-is profit, personal accomplishment and so forth. If there is no clearer guidance, if they are not helped to discipline themselves a bit in this area, they will never of their own accord say that they are ready to divide the available work. It is our responsibility as legislators to ensure that policy orientations correspond to our realities.

This bill could have provided a good opportunity to modify contributions in the opposite direction, making sure it was more advantageous to hire new people than to pay a lot of overtime, too much in some cases. It must be understood that, in the medium term, employers would notice that those working slightly fewer hours were less tired, with fewer work-related accidents, and thus lower worker compensation contributions, and so on. But this requires a signal, something to set them off in the right direction, and there is no such thing in this reform.

I referred to the things that are lacking in this bill. I remember that during the debate over the free trade agreement-which I wanted, promoted and strongly believe in-there was a lot of talk about the adaptation it would necessarily bring about. For weeks, years now, we have heard about massive layoffs, job cuts in many companies. Often they are people who had held the same job for 15, 20, 25 years and who now, at 40 or 50, are unemployed, with many productive years left in them; as members of the labour force, their everyday life would be more stimulating and they could contribute to society.

Why are these people, who held a job for a long time before losing it now when we are entering a new era where technology is becoming more specific, not treated differently? Why not consider longer training or rehabilitation programs for these people and why not keep them much longer on UI?

I do not mean for the federal government to put in place its own training programs, far from it. Another thing lacking in this bill is the transfer of this area to the Quebec government and to the provinces wanting it, such as Quebec where the consensus is very obvious, and lengthening the entitlement period. You cannot go overnight from the textile industry to computer science, 25 to 30 weeks are not enough.

We must be realistic. I say it again, nothing in this bill guarantees that our unemployment insurance plan will be better adapted to the realities of the years 2000, namely changing jobs often, many human tragedies for those who had held a job for a long time and who will have to work in new sectors. There is nothing to this effect in the bill.

During the minute and a half I have left, I would like to go back to manpower training because I find nothing more frustrating than seeing someone come to my office and say: "I am unemployed, I would like to take a course. I read in the paper that the unemployment insurance, or some other organization, was offering a course". To know whether he is eligible or not, I have to ask him 56,000 questions: "Are you on UI? Have you ever been on UI? Are you on welfare?"

This situation is due to the fact that there are two levels of government with their own structure giving their own courses according to their own criteria. Obviously, since it is managing the unemployment insurance program, the federal government's objective is to target the unemployed. For its part, the Government of Quebec, which is responsible for social assistance, gives priority to welfare recipients. And in all of this, people without any income are nobody's priority.

That is a major problem that we will not be able to resolve as long as there are more than one level of government responsible for this matter. In Quebec we resolved this problem a long time ago. We decided that it would be the Government of Quebec, but some people here are stubborn, as they say; they have a hard time getting the message, which is very clear in Quebec and which was repeated during the last socio-economic summit.

So, for all these reasons, we cannot support such a bill, absolutely not, and I conclude by inviting the people back home in Abitibi-Témiscamingue, the Témiscamingue riding, and especially those from Rouyn-Noranda-where there will be a demonstration this Saturday-to come and join us in condemning this manipulation of the unemployment insurance account and this bill, this so-called reform totally lacking in vision for the future, for the years 2000.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

John Murphy Liberal Annapolis Valley—Hants, NS

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to rise today and speak in support of Bill C-12.

I do not think anyone in the House would argue that to maintain the status quo is a non-issue. I believe the modernizing of our employment insurance system is a crucial part of the government's job and growth agenda.

The changes we as a government have brought forward more accurately reflect what works best in today's economy. EI will continue to provide Canadians with basic income protection, as it does under the current system. It will also include a range of new employment measures to help people find work more quickly. In short, it is a system designed more effectively to meet the needs of Canadians.

I will focus my remarks today on how the bill will affect those who work in the seasonal industries. Bill C-12 will ensure that up to 500,000 part time and seasonal workers who were not covered under the old rules will now be insured. About 45,000 seasonal workers who currently are not eligible for UI benefits, despite paying premiums, will become eligible under the new hours based scheme. Some 270,000 workers in seasonal industries will receive an additional three weeks of benefits.

Bill C-12 also commits to a number of important active employment measures, including wage subsidies, earnings supplements, self-employment initiatives and job partnerships.

In my riding of Annapolis Valley-Hants seasonal workers make up a large and very important part of the local economy. Those employed in seasonal industries work extremely hard. If members were to talk to any one of the people in my riding I have spoken with they would say that if there were work year round they would be glad to take it. The reality, however, in many rural communities is quite different. Through no fault of their own people do not always have access to full time year round employment.

I have had the opportunity to meet with many groups and individuals in my riding to discuss this issue. In our conversations they expressed to me some serious concerns about how employment insurance would impact those who work in the seasonal industries. They asked me to bring the message to Ottawa. They said we as a government must ensure any changes are fair and do not unduly target those employed in seasonal industries.

I, like many of my Atlantic caucus colleagues, brought that message to Ottawa. I am pleased the Minister of Human Resources Development has listened and responded positively to these genuine concerns. The end result is a system that is both fair and balanced, a system which will allow more seasonal workers to qualify more quickly for more weeks of benefits.

One of the most serious concerns I have heard in recent weeks was how will the government deal with individuals who have gaps or breaks in employment, those whose work patterns consist of some steady weeks of work interrupted by a few weeks of unemployment and then more steady weeks of work.

For constituents in Annapolis Valley-Hants this is a real concern. For instance, the agriculture sector is the backbone of our economy. However, this means for many people there will be

plenty of work available in the spring and fall but there may be gaps in their employment during the summer months.

I have also heard similar concerns from constituents who work in the fishing industry. For these individuals, setting a relatively short consecutive period of weeks of work on which to calculate possible benefits could mean very low benefits. The number of people who would have been affected is not small. It is approximately 35 per cent of all claimants who apply for income benefits each year. That means nearly 850,000 Canadians with irregular work patterns deserve access to the same protection against job loss as do those with regular jobs.

In my home province of Nova Scotia the average length of gap is over three weeks. Therefore it is not fair to those who through no fault of their own have not had steady work prior to becoming unemployed. I am pleased the minister has adopted the recommendations of the standing committee to count back a full 26 weeks to find the required weeks of work when calculating average income for EI benefits.

This will allow individuals to have gaps of between four and twelve weeks without affecting their benefit levels. Benefits will still be based on how much one earns in the last 26 weeks.

This compromise of maintaining a fixed period of 26 weeks will maintain one of the central objectives of this new legislation. It will increase work incentives while at the same time ensuring a better relationship between benefits paid and the normal pattern of earnings. This 26-week period significantly helps workers with irregular work patterns in every region of the country and in all industries from agriculture to the service sector.

Many people in seasonal industries earn relatively low incomes. As well, they may live in communities that offer relatively few opportunities or have relatively few skills that would lead to better paying work. I believe that the new EI system will more effectively respond to their needs.

Strong efforts have been made by the government to protect low income workers in seasonal industries by focusing on higher income workers for the savings that are essential to EI. Low income people in these industries will also benefit from a new system that focuses on helping people get work and creating incentives for people to take all the work that is available. Simply put, every hour worked will increase an individual's eligibility for benefits.

A key feature of the new system is the family income supplement. This supplement is meant to top up benefits in order to reflect family circumstances. It will bring total insurance benefits up to as much as 80 per cent of a person's average insured earnings. Across Canada, 350,000 claimants in low income families with children will be eligible for the supplement. Many will be in the seasonal industries and many will be in my riding. In Atlantic Canada alone the family income supplement will benefit 54,000 low income families.

Thanks to the efforts of the members of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development, I am pleased to say that those who are receiving family income supplement will be exempt from the intensity rule. I believe this is consistent with the government's overall efforts to redirect assistance to those who are most in need. This is the Liberal way.

These are just a few of the many positive elements of the legislation. I am pleased that the concerns of seasonal workers have been positively addressed in the legislation. I believe that Bill C-12 will be good for seasonal workers, good for the people of the riding of Annapolis Valley-Hants, and good for Canadians.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup-Manpower Training.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Reform

Herb Grubel Reform Capilano—Howe Sound, BC

Madam Speaker, I have a long attachment to questions of the economics of unemployment insurance.

I was one of the first scholars in Canada to produce evidence that the imposition of generous unemployment insurance benefits raises the rate of unemployment.

All through the post-war years until the early 1970s, American and Canadian unemployment rates moved very much in unison. They never diverged by more than one-half of a percentage point. But in 1972 the system in Canada became much more generous with respect to the amount paid when people became unemployed relative to the wages they were earning, the number of weeks necessary in order to become eligible, the number of weeks paid after one became unemployed. Our system was one of the most generous in the world.

Studies have been done to explain why these differences between the Canadian and U.S. unemployment rate developed in the early 1970s and have since widened and now have settled at approximately 3 to 4 percentage points. It is not possible to explain these differences by differences in monetary policy, fiscal policy, exchange rate policy, any of the traditional measures.

The one that dominates the results of attempts to explain these differences is the generosity of our unemployment insurance system. This generosity has reduced an enormous amount of lost output. The idea of having a generous system is very laudable. There is no denying all of the arguments made by the speakers from

the Bloc Quebecois. The more generous the system is the better off are the people who are receiving the money.

As people who are concerned with the welfare of all Canadians, what are the consequences of these generous benefits and the resultant increase in the unemployment rate? I have estimated that as a result of this increased generosity, a 3.5 per cent higher rate of unemployment existed than would have been if we had stayed at the levels at which we were in 1972. Then our national output would be over $11 billion higher.

The tax take alone on that $11 billion higher income would be $3.5 billion. The deficit would be cut substantially and a lot of workers who are now unemployed would be employed.

When looking at reform of the unemployment insurance system it is necessary to do something in addition to what the Bloc members have been saying in all of their speeches. If unemployment insurance benefits are cut, if the cost of being unemployed is raised, certain people will be hurt. That is true. However, if that is done benefits are provided to all Canadians. The most obvious one is that the unemployment rate would be lower. Another is that output would increase and taxation revenues would go up.

What has to be done is consider adjustments to the present system which would bring about these gains in output and reductions in unemployment at a cost which would not be too high. I have four measures which I believe would be widely and readily acceptable to Canadians in order to gain these benefits.

The first and most obvious is that the system can be made less generous. Maximum benefits equal to 53 per cent of previous wages offered by our system now are at or very near the top of benefits paid by all industrial countries. However, generosity over the UI system also depends on the ease with which workers become eligible, how long they can receive benefits, what industries are covered, and so on.

It is interesting to note that in recent years the system's generosity has been reduced substantially. That was one of the conclusions reached at a recent conference held here in Ottawa. Some analysts suggested that it may now be no more generous than it was before the 1972 reform.

The pre-1972 levels are not necessarily ideal and further cuts in generosity should be considered as long, and I emphasize this, they do not impose undue hardship on the neediest.

The second measure I believe that Canadians would accept and which would bring huge benefits involves tougher measures against fraud. I have always treated with some scepticism the results of internal audits made by the system which found fraudulent claims to be about 1 per cent of all benefits paid. How did the investigators discover what are deliberately hidden practices? What incentives do they have to show that their bureaucratic and political bosses are running a system that permits lots of fraud?

There is evidence that my scepticism may be warranted. In the equivalent of a social science experiment, five U.S. states recently introduced systems for the positive identification of people making welfare claims. It is difficult to forge ID cards in numbers tracked by computer. They found that fraudulent claims were between 8 and 15 per cent of welfare payments according to a letter published by the Globe and Mail on April 8, 1996.

I have a question on the Order Paper for the Minister of Human Resources Development. In the spending estimates of the national accounts, I discovered that last year the amount of money recovered from fraud in the insurance system rose by about 3.5 percentage points or several million dollars.

I have asked the minister to explain why, in one year, there was such a dramatic increase. Was it because new measures were undertaken? What was the cause? Certainly it could not be explained by people suddenly becoming 3.5 per cent more fraudulent than they were before.

The third measure I would recommend is the elimination of specific types of abuse. I am very careful not to call them fraud. I talk about abuse.

All of us have heard about entire school boards announcing in April that the teachers and other employees of the school board would be laid off in June after classes stop. As a result of this, eligibility for unemployment insurance is established. In September, these people get rehired. That is an abuse of the system. It was never intended.

We know the story that the former Minister of Human Resources Development was bringing forward all the time. Automobile workers were constantly negotiating contracts that involved unemployment insurance benefits in their pay package. Those kinds of things can be made illegal completely and directly.

Finally, for those people who see this program and would like to have a more elaborate explanation of what is going on, there are measures available for reducing gradually the abuse that is taking place by permanent transfers to seasonal industries.

It makes no sense that the rest of Canadian workers, some of them poor, in areas other than those benefiting, that seasonal workers should be receiving, consistently year after year, six times the amount of money that they pay in premiums.

I have some ideas on how to do this. The paper is available. Please write to me at the House of Commons.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Joe McGuire Liberal Egmont, PE

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to address the House on Bill C-12.

This bill is the culmination of a two-year effort on behalf of the government to change, to clarify and to improve, hopefully, the unemployment insurance system of this country. It has been a very long time coming.

The people of Canada had their first look at this bill last December. Some parts of it were greeted with a great deal of anger in some areas. One of the things that really upset members of Parliament and seasonal workers in particular was the calculation of benefits and what became known as the gap. They were also upset with the divisor rule, which reduced their benefits a great deal, as well as with the intensity rule, which would penalize people who worked in seasonal industries.

It is unfortunate that in Canada we have winters. We do not fish or farm in the wintertime. Neither do we have much of a tourist industry in the wintertime. Most of our nation consists of seasonal industries manned by seasonal workers. They are full time workers in seasonal industries. To penalize them, which was the message they received last December, would be a very unfair way to treat them.

With the change in the cabinet, the new minister undertook to rectify those situations. The minister of HRDC comes from an area which has seasonal labour, whether it be fishing, forestry, mining, tourism or whatever. A large percentage of the workforces in New Brunswick and in P.E.I. consists of seasonal labour. In my riding of Egmont almost 50 per cent of the labour force is seasonal. To penalize them, as we would have been under the bill which was introduced in 1995, was unfair and the new minister recognized that.

The minister and the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development put a lot of work into improving the bill. They worked very long hours. There are a lot of amendments which came from members of the Atlantic caucus and also from members of the Ontario caucus, the Manitoba caucus and the B.C. caucus. As I said earlier, the country is made up of seasonal industries due mainly to its geography.

I compliment the hon. member for Fredericton-York-Sunbury. He put an enormous amount of time and concern into rectifying the bill. I also compliment my colleague from Malpeque who made an amendment which will be introduced later on that will improve the bill.

The main problem with the old bill was the gap. When a seasonal worker applied for unemployment insurance they had to count back consecutively 14 straight weeks to calculate their benefit. Oftentimes there was no work at all. Even though an individual qualified to apply, they did not have 14 consecutive weeks. In an extreme case a person could have one week and 13 zeros. That is how ridiculous the previous proposal was.

We tend to ignore or forget that there was quite a protest against these parts of the bill. Whether it was in P.E.I., New Brunswick, Quebec or Ontario, people came out to help us make these changes in the bill. I was glad to see them demonstrate their support for the changes we were proposing. They made sure we held to our word that we would change the gap, the intensity rule and the divisor.

Once a person's seasonal employment is finished, whether it is in August or October, they can go back 26 consecutive weeks. If their 14 weeks, or their 12 weeks in the case of Prince Edward Island, is within that 26 week period, they will receive full benefit for the contributions they have made.

This will take care of the vast majority of seasonal workers. There will be a few who slip through the cracks. As with any new legislation there is always improvements that can be made. Even though they may not be made in this bill, in the future amendments can be made to protect those people who fall through the cracks.

There may be a year of adjustment for some people who apply in July for unemployment insurance benefits. When they take the previous fall's work weeks, coupled with the spring work weeks and then apply for unemployment insurance in July, these people will be left out. They will have a year of adjustment which may be tough.

On the intensity rule, it is not a perfect solution. However, if we had all kinds of money to apply to every problem we have I suppose we would never get out of debt or never get our deficit under control.

We have to credit the minister for going back to cabinet and securing funds which will take care of the cost of the gap, the cost of the intensity rule and the cost of the divisor rule. When we add it all up there is about an extra half billion dollars put into the bill over the past month.

The intensity rule now is that if someone is a repeater but their household income is $26,000 or less they will not be penalized. Depending on their dependants, they may be able to qualify for an extra amount of money because they are a low income earner. Those with higher incomes will be penalized 1 per cent a year for five years, which is still money and still a penalty. I believe it should still be recognized that $26,000 in this day and age is not a great amount of money and these people should not be penalized.

UI was never designed to support somebody who is making $60,000 or $70,000 net income. With the clawback that situation will be rectified to an extent where in five years' time someone making $48,000 will still be eligible to draw UI. Over that they will not be able to draw UI. I do not think anybody can argue with the fairness of that stipulation in the bill.

I know there are a lot of other things that can be said about the bill. I compliment the committee again for all its hard work, especially the members in my province, the members for Malpeque and Hillsborough, who have devoted a lot of their time to improving the bill.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to speak to the amendments proposed by the Bloc Quebecois. I am pleased to speak to these amendments because I have always thought that in politics, especially when talking about social programs, words are not meaningless.

I do not think we will have many opportunities to see, in this Parliament, a word as daring and as inappropriate as the one proposed by this government which, with its inflated ego, with all the superlatives and the artificial pride it is capable of and with the strength of its weight, has the audacity to call this bill that is before us today, and that has been before us for a number of weeks, the Employment Insurance Act.

Can you imagine that Canada, a country which, if we look at the statistics, has a dismal unemployment rate and where poverty is a problem-the National Council on Welfare reminded us of that last month when it encouraged us to invest $15 billion to fight against poverty-can you imagine that Canada is talking about employment insurance?

The government is talking about employment insurance with a kind of impudence that is unacceptable for parliamentarians. What we are saying is that we will talk about employment insurance when and only when the government has finally set the stage for job creation.

And what do we see today? There have never been so many unemployed people. There have never been so many people wanting so much to work than at this time, and we know many in our ridings.

Each of us has a public voice. Each of us represents people. I represent the riding of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve. This riding is in the Montreal area, which has a far higher unemployment rate than the national average. Yet, today, the government would like the Bloc Quebecois to be part of this play on words. But we are vigilant, we know what these words mean and we will not support a bill that, even in its title, could suggest conditions are there to create jobs. We do not accept that and we will never accept that as long as we live.

Let us look at the premise on which the debate started. Did the government ask the human resources development committee to suggest ways to develop a number of strategies leading to full employment, with what that implies in a system where there are two levels of government? That is not the premise on which the debate started. The debate started with a $2.3 billion cut. We cannot forget, when we analyze this bill, that it aims first and foremost to rationalize, that is, to balance public finances. Of course, we are not against balancing public finances, but we are not convinced it must be done at the expense of the unemployed.

We are in the presence of a government that, with a quite appalling regularity, it must be recognized, has tried over the last few years-since the Liberals have been in power for almost three years-with each of the successive budgets the finance minister has tabled in the House, to make cuts that were aimed at people in our society who need help.

You know what the views of the hon. member for Mercier are in this regard, how she and our colleagues who worked with her on the human resources development committee propose to put people back to work. That is what we should be talking about. But the premise we must start from is not a sense of brinkmanship, a burden of $2,3 billion. This is not the way to hold a successful debate that will allow us to set the stage for full employment.

I do not know whether you had the opportunity to read the Fortin report. I did. According to Mr. Fortin, since 1990-I must be honest with you-the various attacks against unemployment insurance, which limit access to benefits, have exerted pressures in the order of $1 billion on Quebec's public finances. This statement was not made by the hon. member for Mercier, the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve or the hon. member for Verchères. The economist Fortin-who is not known for his support of sovereignty, who is not a friend of the Bloc Quebecois-tabled a report saying that repeated attacks against unemployment insurance by restricting eligibility to the program had exerted such pressures on Quebec's public finances that the Quebec government had to spend another $1 billion.

What is happening? I am surprised that this government does not understand. It is refusing to hold a debate on the real question: How can we create jobs in the conditions that will prevail in the year 2000 and the year 2005? How can we set the stage for full employment? Some countries have succeeded.

True, those are not continental countries. True, those countries are not as vast as Canada. True, those countries do not have two levels of government obstructing each other. But the question remains. The real issue we face in each of our ridings, whether in the scenic Lower St. Lawrence region, where you may be thinking of spending your next vacation, the riding of the Minister of Immigration, or the riding of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, is that people are looking for jobs. And what is this government proposing to them? You may nod in agreement, but the fact remains that there is nothing in the bill before us that would help create jobs.

Again, what the opposition finds unacceptable is that there should first have been a debate on the way to overhaul social programs and to set the stage for job creation, but not with a sword over our heads, not with the burden the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development had to carry: cutting some $2 billion beforehand. This is not the end of the fiscal year.

It is as though a CEO trying to determine what human resources he will need in the coming years was told he had to juggle with a $250 million burden in taxes of all kinds.

The exercise was flawed from the beginning and the official opposition cannot accept that even the title of the bill is confusing to the point of suggesting to people that this legislation includes measures to stimulate employment.

Let us talk about the philosophy of the bill. Madam Speaker, I know you like philosophy. Let us take a look at the philosophy underlying the bill. Do you think that consideration was given to the fact that there are honest people out there who are actively looking for work? How do you explain that the government targeted in a blatant and totally inconsiderate manner the so-called frequently unemployed, as if life was like a career plan, and as if people, over the last five years, had deliberately chosen to put down on their resume: "I collected unemployment benefits on two, three or four occasions".

What is the logic behind the idea of penalizing people because they used a program which they funded without government assistance? Indeed, all those who are listening must know that, in 1992, the government completely withdrew its financial support to the unemployment insurance fund.

This is quite the paradox. The government wants to limit eligibility. It tells people: "If you are frequently unemployed, if, in the last five reference years, you had the audacity of collecting unemployment insurance benefits for more than 20 weeks, it is just too bad. For each multiple of twenty, the benefits to which you would otherwise be entitled will be reduced by one per cent".

Madam Speaker, you are telling me my time is up, but let me say I am still quite upset by all this and I hope to speak again on this issue.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Cape Breton Highlands—Canso Nova Scotia

Liberal

Francis Leblanc LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to say a few words this afternoon on Bill C-12, the legislation to create an employment insurance system in Canada.

I have been associated with the efforts to modernize and reform Canada's unemployment insurance system for some 12 years. I was a civil servant between 1984 and 1988 in the department which preceded the human resources development department in the area that was working on unemployment insurance reform. For the last eight years as a member of Parliament I have represented a constituency in which unemployment insurance is a very important part of the local economy. I have been associated with many of the efforts to reform the UI program and changes that have been made to that program over the last eight years.

Most recently, as the chair of the human resources development committee I travelled across the country examining the views of Canadians on the reform of Canada's social security system. I had a chance to talk to many Canadians about the need for UI reform and the direction the UI reform process should take.

Bill C-12 has gone through a great deal of study by the Government of Canada, by both the current and previous ministers responsible, as well as members of the House, notably the members of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development. It represents a major step forward in the difficult task of reforming Canada's system for insuring Canadians against unemployment, for providing Canadians with support and creating conditions for stable employment and job security in a rapidly changing world.

While the changes which are represented in the employment insurance bill do not completely provide the kind of employment insurance we will need to confront our problems in the 21st century, they do go a very long way toward improving and modernizing the present unemployment insurance system. Let me make a few brief important points about what the legislation does.

Basing the new system on hours and not on weeks will create a much more flexible employment insurance system which, in today's job market, will entitle people to employment insurance much more readily than in the past. It will be fairer to seasonal workers. Many of them have concentrated weeks of work in a short time of the year. If they do not acquire the 12, 13 or 14 weeks under the existing system whether or not they work long hours during those weeks, often they do not qualify for unemployment insurance.

Changing the formula to hours allows seasonal workers easier entitlement and in a shorter period of time. It will also allow workers who can only get part time work to use those hours to build toward their entitlement. Previously in many cases if workers did not work 15 hours a week, they simply did not qualify for unemployment insurance.

It is an improved system because it will provide a much broader coverage for the labour force. It covers every hour worked, not just for those individuals who work a minimum of 15 hours a week. Providing broader coverage not only allows more people access to the employment insurance income benefits which are part of the

program but it also allows more people to have access to the tools for re-employment which are also part of the legislation.

Those tools for re-employment are now only available to people who are getting unemployment insurance benefits. That has created a great deal of confusion and distortion in areas where people would like to take advantage of training programs but do not qualify for unemployment insurance. They are unable to access that benefit. Under this new system those benefits will be more broadly available. More support will be provided for individuals to take advantage of those tools to get back to work.

This new system introduces the notion of allowing people to accumulate and build their entitlement. That is a very powerful incentive to creating more stable and long term jobs especially in those parts of Canada where it is more difficult to create jobs.

The notion of allowing people to accumulate entitlement is in various parts of the bill. It starts with the basis of hours worked rather than weeks worked as a unit of account. The intensity rule is a very astute amendment by the member for Etobicoke-Lakeshore. It allows for people who are repeat users of benefits and who would have their benefit levels reduced through the intensity rule, that by working more hours during that period of unemployment they can build back up their entitlement thereby delaying the effects of the intensity rule.

A number of features in this program are directly suited to people with low incomes. It will give them an opportunity to have more than the 55 or 57 per cent of their earnings replaced through this new system. Through the family income supplements which are part of the new employment insurance system, people with low incomes will be able to have a larger portion of their incomes replaced. That is one of the progressive features of the system.

The new system recognizes the regional differences and the fact that in many parts of the country jobs are much harder to find. The system is regionally differentiated in order to take that into account. The important thing we all have to know in this House is that the fundamental purpose of this legislation has to be to create the conditions for jobs and job creation especially in those parts of Canada where jobs are difficult to create.

The unemployment insurance system cannot be a barrier or obstacle to creating jobs. If it does that, and the old system has done that, then we are fighting against ourselves. We are working at cross purposes and we are not providing the environment Canadians want and need in order to have the jobs that will provide secure incomes for the 21st century. That is why this system is an important improvement to the existing unemployment insurance system in Canada.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Osvaldo Nunez Bloc Bourassa, QC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-12, which is of great importance to everyone, and to support the amendments proposed by the Bloc Quebecois. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate our three colleagues from the Bloc Quebecois, the members for Mercier, Lévis, and Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup, for their extraordinary handling of this issue.

Throughout Canada, throughout Quebec, when I meet with ordinary people, with unions, they congratulate the Bloc Quebecois for the extraordinary work we have done on this very important subject. When I meet with unions in which I worked for 19 years, they are proud of the work done by our party.

It goes without saying that I am strongly opposed to this regressive, discriminatory, anti-employment, anti-worker, anti-union bill. I do not have words to describe it. It astounds me that the government remains completely insensitive to popular demonstrations and to the potential for indignation mentioned earlier by my colleague for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve.

I think that we have not yet seen the full potential for indignation and revolt of the people of Canada and of Quebec with respect to this bill, which will mean unprecedented reductions in UI coverage in Canada.

Yesterday, this bill was described as organized theft, because it would tighten eligibility requirements, reduce benefit periods, lower benefits, and, at one point as well, we saw increased penalties for infractions. We know, for example, that the initial penalty for voluntary termination of employment was not what it is today. Today, anyone who leaves their job voluntarily pays a heavy price under the Unemployment Insurance Act.

The United Nations has declared this international year for the elimination of poverty, but I know of no initiative by this government to fight poverty in Canada and in Quebec. On the contrary. Poverty is growing rapidly in most sectors of society, because I think the government's tendency is to listen only to business. This bill is a poverty creating bill.

In my riding of Bourassa, approximately one third of the population is unemployed. This is a much higher rate than in the rest of Canada, much higher than in Quebec and Montreal Island generally. Sometimes, I wonder if it would not be better if the unemployment insurance fund were to be managed by some other organization.

I lived three years in Belgium. The unemployment insurance system in that country is managed by the unions. It did not cost the

state anything. Benefits are much higher. The benefit period is much longer than in Canada. I think that, in Canada, businesses and unions could manage at least part of the system, since employers and employees are the ones who pay into the fund.

Since 1990, the government has not paid a penny into the unemployment insurance fund. However, it uses the surplus, now reaching $5 billion, to help reduce the deficit. In my view, the trend nowadays in the unemployment insurance area is to cut, to get in line with the United States, where the system is much less generous than in Canada or other countries that have signed NAFTA.

I think it is important not to pass this bill. Yesterday was May 1, International Workers Day, but let me tell you that no one in Canada and even in the world was in the mood to celebrate.

In Sainte-Thérèse, Kenworth just closed down: 900 jobs lost. What did the federal government do? Nothing. On the other hand, the Quebec government is prepared to provide financial assistance to this company to upgrade the Sainte-Thérèse plant and to develop the training program for the employees.

The CAW, the union, is prepared to sign a collective agreement and agree to labour peace at least for five years.

I take this opportunity to salute the labour federations in Quebec, the CLC and all unions for the extraordinary job they have also done on unemployment insurance.

Yesterday, naturally, people rose up against this bill. They are furious with the government, which is endlessly cutting everywhere, in social programs and especially in the area of unemployment insurance. Bill C-12 hits part time workers particularly hard. Most part time workers are women; sixty-nine percent of people working less than 35 hours a week are women.

This bill discriminates against women. I am pleased women in Canada are reacting against this, as they did last year in Quebec. They are organizing a march from Vancouver and the Atlantic provinces. It will begin May 14 in Vancouver and May 19 in Saint John, New Brunswick. They will reach Parliament Hill June 15, and I think all Bloc members will be there to support the legitimate demands of women: an increase in the minimum wage, the continuation of social programs and funding for day care.

Bill C-12 also discriminates against immigrants. You know, sometimes when immigrants come here with a temporary work permit they are not entitled to unemployment insurance, because they are not residents of Canada. However those who have just immigrated here must work 910 hours before being entitled to unemployment insurance and not 300 hours as before, despite their willingness to work.

For all these reasons, I strongly oppose this bill and I ask the government to declare war on unemployment and not on the unemployed, as is the case at the moment.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andy Mitchell Liberal Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure today to talk about the reforms to the unemployment insurance program and the development of the new employment insurance scheme.

Now would be a good time to reiterate that this reform is based on a number of broad, general principles to which the government is appropriately adhering. No doubt the best social security program a Canadian can have is a job. We have to keep that in mind in everything we do. At the end of the day the best way to ensure the security of individual Canadians is to ensure they have jobs.

We have to realize, as we certainly do in my part of rural Canada, we need to create an environment within which the small business sector can create wealth and employment.

This program goes a little further than that. There are proactive measures within the employment insurance program to help with the creation of jobs. We see proactive measures such as wage subsidies, the self-employment assistance program, which I have seen work well in my riding of Parry Sound-Muskoka, the earning supplement and job creation partnerships.

Job creation partnerships are of particular importance in a rural riding like mine where we have an opportunity to marry the need to provide experience for individuals who are temporarily out of the workforce with programs that will pursue economic development within our communities.

This combination of providing experience for people while they work on projects to help develop the economy of my rural part of the country, although applicable across the country, is an excellent approach to achieving the principle of maintaining support for individuals who find themselves unemployed. At the same time, it creates the infrastructure and the environment where long term jobs can be created and people will be able to find sustainable employment.

One of the things we have come to realize in dealing with reforms to the unemployment insurance program is that the situation is very different today than it was 30 years ago. At that time much of the employment created was of a temporary, cyclical nature where because of a downturn in demand for a short period of time an individual might find himself unemployed for two, three or four months.

Today that has changed significantly. Much of our employment is not the result of a temporary decline but because an industry or a job may no longer exist.

The need for a properly operating employment insurance program goes far beyond creating income support. It needs to address the whole issue of creating long term employment. Obviously this assists by working on infrastructure and by helping communities develop long term economic development goals.

The program deals directly with the small business community. In my riding of Parry Sound-Muskoka it accounts for almost all the jobs. It accounts across Canada for most of the new job creation.

It is important that we realize components in this reform program will assist the small business men and women who work every day in the riding to create wealth and employment for my constituents. The whole idea of creating a surplus in the UI fund is so we can have a stable UI rate and do not end up with a recession.

There is at least one economist in the House now who knows full well the very wrong thing to do during a recession is increase premiums to pay for the increased demand on UI.

What makes far more sense is to ensure we have a surplus so that when there is an extra demand during an economic downturn we will not have to exacerbate that demand by increasing UI premiums. This happened during the last recession.

We have also helped small business men and women with a number of other measures connected to this plan. We have a far more simplified system. Small business people become very frustrated, and rightly so, when they spend more time on paperwork and on adhering to regulations than they do doing their jobs and what they do best, creating wealth and employment.

This program, particularly the conversion to an hourly rate from a weekly rate, significantly reduces the administration cost to the small business community. This is a very positive step.

We saw a decrease in the premium rate business will have to pay. This is a positive step. Those types of taxes are job killers. It is positive that we are able to modify that rate, as is the whole idea that the maximum insurable earnings rate will give a break in terms of taxation to the small business community.

It is clear what we are trying to do with this reform. We are recognizing absolutely that the world of the 1990s is very different from that of the 1960s. It is not only an issue of income support, although that is very important and this program deals with that. This is an issue of making sure long term job creation occurs.

We are doing that by providing individual workers with a number of tools in this program. The committee had an opportunity to review those and we enunciated many times in the House that they are very positive initiatives. They will help individuals acquire the skills and experience they need to move into areas of employment that are long term and sustainable. On the other hand, an economic environment has been created that will allow the small business community to create wealth and those jobs which unemployed individuals need.

This is an excellent reform. The members of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development have worked hard on this bill over the last few months. I congratulate them and I look forward to seeing it passed in the House.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

It being5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration ofprivate members' business as listed on today's Order Paper

Equality In The WorkplacePrivate Members' Business

5:25 p.m.

Reform

Ted White Reform North Vancouver, BC

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should support the elimination of section 15(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982 as it derogates from the principle of equality enunciated by section 15(1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and, that the government should work towards enhancement of equality in the workplace by ending the discriminatory hiring programs that have resulted from the affirmative action provisions of section 15(2).

Madam Speaker, unfortunately this motion has been deemed non-votable. This means that we will be spending about $125,000 an hour plus to run the House but members will not be allowed to vote at the end of the process.

I have tried unsuccessfully on previous occasions to get Liberal members to correct this travesty of democratic principles. While I expect no different reaction this time, I am going to ask for the unanimous consent of the House to make this motion votable.

Equality In The WorkplacePrivate Members' Business

5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

Do we have unanimous consent?

Equality In The WorkplacePrivate Members' Business

5:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Equality In The WorkplacePrivate Members' Business

5:25 p.m.

Reform

Ted White Reform North Vancouver, BC

Madam Speaker, once again the tolerant, compassionate, politically correct Liberals have denied the basic cornerstone of democracy, the right to vote. In fact I am sure they wish they could completely censor this motion. I do not doubt for one minute that some of them would suppress free speech in this place if they could.

Most of my Liberal colleagues across the way will decry this motion by saying that it is disrespectful of goals behind notions such as employment equity. It is often the people that support affirmative action who are the real promoters of discriminatory practices within Canadian society. They regularly avoid accountability or the need to intelligently debate the issues of discrimination and fairness, resorting instead to screams of racist, bigot and extremist. So entrenched is their ideology that they are incapable of assessing the damage to society some of their policies have done.

Section 15(2) of the Constitution is a good example. Let us look first briefly at section 15(1). Section 15(1) states: "Every individual is equal before the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability".

So far that is pretty good. Section 15(1) enunciates a legal principle that is fundamentally sound. All of us are equal and should be afforded equal protection from discrimination under Canadian law. Even vertically challenged MPs with a New Zealand accent like myself are protected from discrimination by section 15(1). The authors of section 15 should have left it at that.

The purveyors of politically correctness and social engineering could not just leave it at that. In their zeal to make some Canadians more equal than others, in their misguided attempts to correct the wrongs of days long since past, they came out with section 15(2) which reads: "Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups, including those who are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical ability".

Basically if we strip away the niceties, section 15(1) says we are all equal and section 15(2) says that programs like affirmative action and equal opportunity make some Canadians more equal than others because of their race, their gender and so on. This is Animal Farm all over again.

It surely must be clear even to the most fanatical defender of affirmative action that giving a specific group of people special rights automatically reduces the rights of some other group. These programs which are supposed to encourage equality actually end up discriminating against individuals who are not part of the favoured group.

In essence, the program sends a message that it is a waste of time applying for a reserved position. To the persons who are given the special consideration, the condescending message is: "Since you cannot hope to make it on merit alone, we will lower the requirements for you". The whole notion is insulting and demeaning. It is completely demeaning to those who it purports to help and those it excludes.

In all of my discussions with people who could be identified as visible minorities, I have never yet met one who wanted to get a job based solely on the fact that they belonged to a special group or a targeted group for affirmative action. They want to get a job based on merit just like the rest of us do.

In other words, even most of the people who are supposed to benefit from the special treatment do not want it. That is why a recent survey of the public sector, the public service in Canada, found such unwillingness for people to self-identify their ethnic origins.

The basic premise of affirmative action programs is highly insulting and is sometimes even racist. I thought the days of Mrs. Parks in Selma, Alabama were long gone, but no. There are actually government sanctioned programs and legislation in place in Canada which makes it legal to refuse people employment because of their colour or gender. I will talk about that a little more later. This is a sad state of affairs because it borders on contempt for those Canadians who truly support the principles of equality and merit.

Let me use an analogy which explains the problem by reference to the Olympic Games. If Olympic events had affirmative action and equal opportunity programs in place, the scenario would be something like this. The International Olympic Committee would implement a program which would allow anyone to compete in the 100 meters who could run it in, let us say, five minutes. Now there is not much challenge in that so it would be a pretty open field.

However, when the race is finally run, the person who won the race with the fastest time would not necessarily get the gold medal. Instead, the gold medal would be awarded to the fastest person who belongs to a traditionally disadvantaged group regardless of whether they won the race or not. Merit would not be a factor. Frankly, it would not take more than one set of Olympic Games for top athletes to work out that they were wasting their time with a lot of training and would simply give up entering the race. It would be equally demeaning for those who were winning the medals because they would feel they were not receiving it on merit.

This type of situation is exactly what happened to a Canadian named Timothy Juliette. He recently graduated from a civil aviation mechanical engineering course with a near perfect 3.98 grade point average. Subsequent to that he was denied entry into a Department of Transport training course which would have allowed him to pursue a career in his field. He was denied access to the course because he was not a member of a disadvantaged group. More to the point, he was denied the opportunity because of his gender and skin colour, in this case white and male.

Sadly, it is all quite legal and constitutional under the present system. Section 15(2) actually allows for programs which discriminate against persons who are not women, aboriginals, persons of colour and persons with physical limitations. It is the height of hypocrisy for the government to claim that it is working against discrimination while at the same time discriminating against people who do not fit into its quotas or hiring goals.

The worst thing is that some of the most vocal of the promoters of affirmative action are so blinded with ideology that they will not or cannot see how intolerant, bigoted and extremist their demands really are. Some of the most vocal act as if they have been chosen by God to be the sole possessors of tolerance, compassion, understanding and intellect, when in fact they exhibit all of the symptoms of intolerance, a lack of compassion and understanding and an inability to see the truth.

A homosexual support group demonstrated against the Prime Minister outside the House yesterday because he permitted a free vote on Bill C-33. The very group the Prime Minister is trying to help demonstrated its intolerance by indicating that it wanted the Prime Minister to force MPs to vote a specific way.

Members of this group need to take a look in the mirror at the reflection of their own intolerance and bigotry. Instead of trying to rationally discuss the issue with those who are voting against Bill C-33, they showed fanatical intolerance. No wonder they drive people away from their cause.

That group thinks it should be immune from accountability and that its version of tolerance and understanding would be to force those MPs to vote the way it says. It is lip service tolerance, and as I said, those people need to look at the reflection in the mirror of their own intolerance from time to time.

I listened yesterday to the member for Vancouver Centre. She told us of the dreadful discriminatory experiences she endured as she struggled to become a doctor. I can understand how she would become very bitter and angry from those experiences. However, we cannot correct the problems of the past by focusing that anger and bitterness into revenge on others who had nothing to do with the injustices. To do so is to sink to the same despicable level as those who have discriminated against her.

On Tuesday evening in West Block there was a reception for a group of Rotary Club students who had won a trip to this region through a competition. While I was at the reception I was approached by some young white males, students who were studying hard in the hope of getting good jobs.

They wanted to express their concerns to me about the discrimination they felt working against them every time they applied for jobs. Does the member for Vancouver Centre really want to hurt these young people? Does she really want to single them out for discrimination and denial of jobs because of the sins of the past? Could she look into their eyes and tell them that no matter how great their merit, their places must be filled by people from designated groups? Could she tell them they must be denied employment because they were born male and white?

Does she really think she can build tolerance and understanding this way? Logically the only long term outcome from that can be a backlash which would destroy all the gains made by teaching tolerance and understanding.

Education is the tool we must use, not discriminatory legislation. It was the state that legislated black people to the back of the bus in Alabama. It was the state that legislated discrimination in Germany and identified people by race, as this government is doing in the census this year. Everywhere discrimination has flourished, it has flourished because the state legislated that discrimination. Now it has happened and it is getting worse in Canada.

The member for Yorkton-Melville, who sits beside me in this House, worked for several years on an Indian reservation. Like the member for Vancouver Centre, he knows exactly what it is like to experience racial discrimination. Right here in Canada, under the noses of the members opposite, a white male living and working on an Indian reservation lived in fear for his life. I hope that at an appropriate time this member will repeat his story for the benefit of the people in this House.

Section 15(2) did not protect him from discrimination because legislation cannot change attitudes or enforce tolerance. It cannot enforce understanding. Only education changes attitudes and builds tolerance and understanding. In this regard I will refer to an incident which took place in the House earlier in the week.

On Tuesday morning the member for Etobicoke-Lakeshore, who is black, was visibly very angry after reading a newspaper report which claimed that the member for Nanaimo-Cowichan had made some discriminatory remarks under questioning by a reporter.

The member for Etobicoke-Lakeshore crossed the House and came among the Reform benches. She was yelling very loudly and was clearly very upset. It was impossible to determine exactly what she was saying. A fair bit of shouting went on back and forth between Reform members and the member for Etobicoke-Lakeshore. I was quite disturbed and distressed by the entire experience.

How much better it would have been if the member, before passing judgment on the basis of hearsay and a newspaper story, had demonstrated the tolerance and understanding she asks others

to display by approaching the member for Nanaimo-Cowichan and saying "is this really how you feel? Is the newspaper story correct? Is there some what we can correct this problem?"

If the member truly believes in promoting tolerance and understanding in these matters she must treat others as she expects them to treat her. This is a two-way street, and her goals will not be attained by screaming at those who can help her achieve these goals.

I am quite sad that I have to convey this message through a speech. I do so only because she appears hostile to any other discussions.

Unfortunately section 15(2) of the Constitution is helping to create an aura of anger and intolerance in the workplaces of Canada and I sincerely believe we would be better off without it.

As I said, I found the incident in the House this week very distressing. I found this entire week very distressing. I very much want to be part of a good and logical debate about important issues facing the country. I do not like being immersed in the aura of anger and intolerance which filled this place over the last few days.

I take the issues of racism and discrimination very seriously. Last year I attended a two day anti-racism conference in my riding so that I could listen to the concerns of those who had been affected and investigate whether there was any racism in my riding. I also advertised in one of my regular weekly reports for the North Shore News for any examples of racism that existed in my riding so that I could intervene and try to resolve the problem.

I am pleased to say that not a single example of racism has been reported to me in the almost three years I have been an MP. My constituents, like the majority of Canadians, are a tolerant lot quite capable of avoiding discrimination without the government's interfering in the process.

On the other hand, can we count as racism the fact that some school students in Richmond, B.C. have complained recently to the media that they cannot get jobs in their community because they are not ethnic Chinese and do not speak Mandarin or Cantonese? Perhaps the member for Richmond should begin addressing the problems in his riding. Can we count as discrimination the examples reported by white males who feel they did not qualify for job opportunities because they were not members of an identifiable group?

It seems these problems, which some might call reverse racism and reverse discrimination, are a direct result of section 15(2) and its associated affirmative action programs which, instead of eliminating discrimination, have simply transferred the discrimination from one group to another.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Let us get rid of these discriminatory actions of government and let us get rid of section 15(2). Let us concentrate on education as the weapon against discrimination.

Equality In The WorkplacePrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Prince Albert—Churchill River Saskatchewan

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Madam Speaker, I have a speech but I do not think I will be using it to any great extent. I would prefer to answer the comments put forward in such a callous and outrageous fashion by the member across.

He is blaming the government that the motion is non-votable. That decision is not made by the government. It is made by an all-party committee which agrees through consensus which motions are votable. If members of his own party do not agree it is worth our time, I do not suppose we should either.

I was in the House the other day and I witnessed the hurt and the pain expressed by the member for Etobicoke-Lakeshore at the remarks made by the member for Nanaimo-Cowichan, remarks that were all over the newspapers.

Her feelings matter. Her feelings are important. She has worked hard all her life in the face of discrimination, in the face of adversity, to build her community, to bring tolerance to society and to show all Canadians we all have a place in this country regardless of our race, regardless of our religion, regardless of the colour of our skin.

To have this lifetime of work shamelessly put down, shamelessly put to the side by the callous remarks of the member for Nanaimo-Cowichan is not acceptable. Her conduct in the circumstances was quite reasonable in comparison to members of the Reform Party.

The deputy leader and the leader would not condemn the actions of the member for Nanaimo-Cowichan but glibly sat by, saying it is all right, it does not really matter, it is not important. They say he really did not feel that way. He did feel that way. On December 14, 1994 he made the same comments in a Nanaimo paper. That is twice. He does feel that way. It does hurt the hon. member.

After that, after the apologizes were made-

Equality In The WorkplacePrivate Members' Business

5:50 p.m.

Reform

Ted White Reform North Vancouver, BC

Madam Speaker, on a point of order. The member is making statements that he knows how the member for Nanaimo-Cowichan feels.

Equality In The WorkplacePrivate Members' Business

5:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

That is not a point of order, hon. member, and you well know it.

Equality In The WorkplacePrivate Members' Business

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby Liberal Prince Albert—Churchill River, SK

After the apologies were made yet another Reform member, the member for Athabasca, on a radio program in his riding said he thought minorities should be discriminated against. A number of other Reformers were quoted as agreeing with the position of the hon. member.

We have heard concerns expressed not by this side of the House but by members of that party about the extremism that exists within that party. It is not us. Their very own people are worried about it. These people were caned into submission in a caucus meeting. How is that for free speech? How is that for allowing everybody to express how they feel?

It is little wonder the hon. member suggests there is not a single example of racism that has been brought forward to him so that he could fix. Everybody who would be subject to racist activities knows he would not be the one to fix it.

We talk about a bill before the House that has brought an amendment to the charter of rights and freedoms to outlaw affirmative action, something that would make it so that we could not have affirmative action and programs to fix an alleviate the conditions of people who are less advantaged.

We just get finished celebrating the 50th anniversary of the end of a terrible period in our history. How did that period start? It started with talk. It started with the systematic marginalization of minorities, the people the majority thought did not matter. It went through action. We all know where it ended. Let us remember history. Fifty years is not a long time. Fifty years is not long enough in the evolution of humanity to think these kinds of things could never happen again.

That is why we must all be vigilant and persistent and continue our efforts to ensure equality within this great nation, to see that all citizens, regardless of race, regardless of colour, regardless of religion, are free to enjoy this country. We can all work together to build a better society in which people will be free from the types of comments and actions we have been witness to this week.

Equality In The WorkplacePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

An hon. member

Where is Jag Bhaduria?

Equality In The WorkplacePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

An hon. member

It was not because there was anything wrong with him. It was what he did.