Madam Speaker, the member for Fraser Valley West is a hard act to follow.
Do we need a Senate? Many Canadians do not think so. They think it is irrelevant, it is held in contempt or it is the butt of jokes, and the polls would indicate that is the case as well.
We do not hear this about other senates in the democratic free world where we have elected senates. We do not hear that about the senate to the south of us. What is the main reason? It is very clear the main difference and the main reason why they are credible and accepted is they are elected and very often they are the prime people who are responsible for regional interests. They are accountable and that follows from being democratically elected.
There are times in Canada when our Senate has been very relevant. Primarily this is when it is not a rubber stamp. There are a few times when the Senate is not nominated by the government of the day. We saw this in this Parliament for the first couple of years and there were some issues on which the other place did some very responsible things. Of course, that is not convenient or comfortable for the government of the day.
There are two kinds of senators. There are many ways we could categorize senators. There are those who were previously elected officials, such as members of Parliament, who know what democratic accountability is. From my province of British Columbia there are a couple of members who leap to mind as being in that category. Generally speaking, if we were to ask the public in British Columbia who were the B.C. senators, those two individuals would be most recognizable. If we were to ask for a credibility quotient those two individuals would once again have the highest credibility quotient. Very often they are head and shoulders above the rest.
There is a reason for this. They carry the tradition, the responsibilities and the accountability that had to go with everything an elected official has in their terms of reference. They have carried that into that other place.
The Senate has left itself wide open for criticism on so many fronts. All of our institutions are challenged if they do not change with the times. We need look only at royalty in Great Britain and other places.
The old political institutions, the old political parties, the whole party discipline system, these practices are changing. There is a new found interest in direct democracy. The Reform Party is a reflection of direct democracy coming to the House of Commons.
Some of the party discipline that has been traditional in the House of Commons is starting to change in the governing parties in my view as a consequence of the Reform Party's presence in the House of Commons. We saw that on the sexual orientation bill, Bill C-33, with the backbench Liberals wanting to express a non-government point of view. We understand the same thing is to express itself with regard to Newfoundland schools coming up.
This will not go away. It is the thin edge of a very fat wedge. The old political parties will have to reinvent themselves, as will the Senate. The more the House of Commons changes and the more the Senate entrenches itself in its non-elected and non-accountable ways, the more irrelevant it will become. This is a shot across the bow for the other place. If the Senate were elected it would follow that this would create accountability and we would not need to be having this debate in all likelihood.
Once again, by bringing this motion to the House, Reform is rocking the boat on the status quo. I was delighted to hear the comments from our Bloc colleague who sees our point. Once again we find the Liberal government defending the status quo. It has exploited the current system to its advantage for decades. It is not difficult to understand why it wants to defend the status quo even though it is indefensible in the public's mind. What a sad spectacle this is.
The senators will stand on principle, so the speculation goes, and not appear before the House committee to defend their estimates. This is not a House of Lords. This is Canada where our young country should be creative, constructive and invigorated by fresh challenges, not cloistered and defensive in every way and entrenched in historical irrelevance.
No senator has appeared before a committee of the House of Commons since 1888. This would be the first time since 1869 that any senator has ever appeared before a House committee to defend expenditures. Does this precedent mean this should be the case? No, quite the contrary.
This is a very important reinventing of a very important institution. There is symbolism that in the main estimates this is vote one. One could hardly say this has simply been overlooked through all the years, nor could one say that this time. By virtue of its mere placement, it is impossible to overlook.
Canada has had in its history one elected senator, Stan Waters from Alberta. Stan Waters from Alberta ended every speech in the Senate with, I believe: "And besides all that, the Senate should be reformed". I understand he did that every time. A wake up call is needed. It is unfortunate the late Stan Waters is not here to witness what we are going through today, which appears to be of such little interest to the government.
The Senate has always tended to be the home for those of privilege, accustomed to perks, travel and expense accounts. Audits generally turn a blind eye to those individuals who enjoy such prestige. It was only in the 1980s that the House of Commons got control of its operations and procedures. Until that time it also was enjoying very loose control procedures. Now it is time for the Senate to get under the microscope and face those same expectations of the taxpayers if it wishes to be something that was once revered and not held in contempt.
I co-operated with a senator from British Columbia and a senator from Nova Scotia to carry on an ad hoc parliamentary committee, joint committee hearings in British Columbia on the light station issue. This was a good and valuable exercise. It was good for British Columbians, it was good for me, it was good for the senators, it was good for these institutions and in my mind displayed some of the things that could occur and would occur on a regular basis if we had two institutions reformed in some minor and in some major ways.
It took creativity on our part. In a sense we were battling the status quo in order to get this ad hoc parliamentary committee on the road. We did not get help from very many people. When we made the final report, which I think was a valuable report, the House denied me the unanimous consent to table it in the House. I think it was a loss to the House, and there should be a provision for doing things differently. If members want to participate in these kinds of things the House should encourage them and the product
of those hearings or procedures should automatically be tabled in the House.
The two senators with whom I participated are previous members of Parliament of long standing. They understood the system, accountability and their responsibility to the people and the taxpayers. One senator was in cabinet for an extended period of time and has a very high credibility index, in particular in British Columbia which is where she is from.
I do not want to see an end to the Senate. We get a taste of how useful the Senate could be from time to time, especially when representing regional interests. Let us join the 21st century before we leave the 20th century.
A 1991 auditor general's report was referred to in earlier speeches by other members. It is useful to look at what is being said. This is important stuff. I have gone through the executive summary. I do not think very much has changed since 1991 in this regard. If it has changed, let us hear about it. The only way we will hear about it is if we have vote one of the estimates defended by the very people who prepared those estimates, the senators from the appropriate committee.
We found the Senate has neither formally nor informally delegated clear responsibility to management, nor has it made clear for what it will hold management accountable. That is a pretty straightforward recommendation from the auditor general.
The Senate does not adequately report on its administrative, financial or human resource management performance and does not possess sufficient information to enable it to do so systematically. That is pretty straightforward.
To improve accountability the Senate should periodically publish details of travel, telecommunications and office expenditures of senators. It is amazing what public disclosure will do for accountability.
Senators have insufficient incentives to manage their office expenses with due regard for economy and efficiency. The details of the expenditures should be publicly reported.
There are lots of reports in every bureaucracy that sit on shelves and gather dust. When we are talking about expenditures of taxpayer funds, there is no more important single role for members of Parliament and for the House of Commons than to be watchdogs and to be calling for accountability for the expenditures of taxpayer funds.
When we get vote one on the estimates and an organization, the other place virtually thumbing its nose at the House of Commons standing committee responsible for going over the estimates, there is something very wrong. The public deserves better.
The final statement in the auditor general's report recommends that where appropriate the operational mandate should be clarified, costs ascertained, opportunities for productivity improvement seized and the types and levels of service provided should be re-examined to see if other less costly levels of service might also be acceptable to senators.
I felt very blessed to talk to this item today. I was beginning to wonder if there were any way as members of Parliament we could talk in a substantive way about the functioning of the other place.
I understand there is historical reticence to do so but I also understand that historical reticence is leading us nowhere. It is leading to the abolition of the Senate. I do not endorse the abolition of the Senate. I would like to see the Senate reformed.
Organizations that dig in their heels are setting themselves up for a much bigger fall than institutions that embrace change, that smell the winds of change and decide they want to seek a fresh mandate, new systems, that they want to be in step with or ahead of the times. It is long overdue in this longstanding Canadian institution that we are speaking about today. That is my strongest recommendation.