Mr. Speaker, I think it important to put the the motion brought forward by the Reform Party in its true context. The Standing Committee on Government Operations asked representatives of the Senate to come and defend the upper House's budget requirements.
The Senate did not respond to this request. We are talking about a budget of $43 million. It is defensible in terms of the principles prevalent at the time the two Houses and Canada's parliamentary system were created, but today we have to ask ourselves whether we can afford to pay the cost of principles and situations of this sort.
Today, $43 million is still a fairly significant sum. It covers a whole lot of things. If we were certain the spending of the Senate were exemplary, we might have fewer questions. I would refer to the report of the Auditor General of Canada.
In the Senate in 1991, a number of anomalies and questionable practices were reported. In the case of the messenger service, for example, the senators decided that there was no limit and that they could spend however they liked so long as there was a need.
The report of the auditor general also drew attention to the matter of attendance. A lot of senators are absent much of the time, thereby not generating a lot of expenditures. There are, however, a minority who generate a lot of expenditures.
These things are perhaps justifiable. This is the aim of the motion by the Reform Party, further to the recommendation of the Standing Committee on Government Operations.
The Senate's response is all the more surprising because, when our fellow citizens learn that there is a House of unelected people who are accountable to no one or just about, they are shocked. Any comparison may be flawed, but you have, on the one hand, the requirements imposed on the public, for example, how UI recipients may use their benefits-they are required to understand some very complex laws-and, on the other hand, a House of unelected people, most of whom were recommended for appointment for having contributed to the activities of a political party such as the Liberal Party of Canada and the Conservative Party. Most senators were appointed because of their involvement in political organizations.
Is it still appropriate on the eve of the 21st century to have a House that can spend $43 million without being in any way accountable for how this money is spent? Is it appropriate that we cannot ask questions to find out, for example, if the money to be spent on salaries is justified in light of the Senate's activities?
Is there any justification for the way Senate committees operate and unelected senators' travelling expenses, in today's Canada? This calls for a short history lesson. The Senate was modelled after the British House of Lords. The Senate was first created as an unelected body because it was said that elected members did not have all the abilities required to properly manage the affairs of state, that wiser people were needed, people with special training, and so on.
The situation has changed since then. Today, the House of Commons includes people with experience in various sectors, people who have the technical skills required. We also have support teams of assistants and researchers who do a very good job. They must help elected members, because of the fundamental notion that elected members of Parliament are accountable for the effectiveness of their work if they want to be re-elected when their mandate expires.
It is quite a different matter for senators, who are appointed practically for life without being accountable for their effectiveness.
To illustrate this, I would like to ask a question; I think I could even put it to the members of Parliament here in this House. Do you know who is the senator responsible for the general area of your riding?
How many people can identify the senator representing the Senate divisions of Lauzon, De la Vallière, De Lorimier, Wellington, De Salaberry, Grandville, Rougemont, Mille Isles or Motarville for example? I think it would be quite a challenge to ask Canadians which senator represents what division.
This is an exaggerated example to show that the Senate does not meet an essential criterion for management of public funds, the accountability criterion. Senators are not accountable, neither individually nor collectively. Senators are not required to account to the people for their performance and we cannot get them to appear before a House committee to account for the way the
Senate's budget is spent and for its operational effectiveness. This goes to show how archaic an institution the Senate is.
We could even go as far as to say that the Senate is somewhat of an anachronism. By refusing to do as requested in the motion and accounting before the committee for the use made of its appropriations, it may add fuel to arguments in favour of the motion, soon to be debated in this House, to abolish the Senate as we know it.
A full debate could be held across Canada on this issue. I think we will have an opportunity to have such a debate when my motion to abolish the Senate is considered. We will be able to discuss what kind of upper House we want. Do we want an elected upper House? Would we rather not have any upper House at all? Should proportional representation by region be introduced? There are many options to consider.
I am deeply convinced however that, as it stands today, the upper House does not meet in any real way democratic requirements for the turn of the century.
Coming back to the auditor general's report for 1991, which contained 27 recommendations regarding various aspects of day-to-day administration, it would be very interesting to see to what extent the Senate has taken these recommendations into account. For example, if a committee could ask how budgets are allocated and divided regarding messenger services, salaries, trips, including those in the senators' divisions and in the rest of Canada, we would get answers to all sorts of questions that are of interest to us.
Members of Parliament are accountable to the public. If we do something wrong or if we make bad decisions, the public decides whether or not to give us a new mandate. The Reform Party motion is nothing but a request for a minimum of respect for our role as members of this House. Will we tolerate the fact that senators can spend with impunity, without being accountable?
Does the principle upheld by the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra, namely that the two houses are independent from each other, still apply today? If we asked Canadians whether the Senate should be accountable for its spending, I think they would be unanimous in saying that it should be. Canadians would say that the Senate must be accountable for its activity and its work in the same way members of Parliament are accountable to them through the election process.
The fact that we have an obsolete rule does not mean we cannot change it.
When we visit our ridings, we are asked a lot of questions such as: "How are you going to ensure that the federal system reaches an adequate level of efficiency, so as to put an end to the list of horrors related to a lack of control over spending?" People give examples. They mention losses such as forgone tax revenues from family trusts. They refer to what is going on at the Department of National Defence. And then there is the Senate.
We saw it very clearly when the last speech from the throne was delivered. Do you think Canadians were impressed when they saw a few senators having a little nap during the speech? This situation is truly unacceptable from a democratic point of view, and it must change.
When you think of it, the request made to the Standing Committee on Government Operations is a healthy initiative. The Senate is not an elected house. It is important to always remember that senators in Canada are not elected. Our system is not at all like the one in the United States or in other countries where senators are elected. When people are elected, they knowsthat it is for a given period of time, for a mandate.
If they do not do their job properly, the public has the last word. This is not the case with senators in Canada: they face no sanction. Whether they are effective or not does not change anything. It makes no difference in the way they are treated. You are not accountable to the public for the position you adopt.
I therefore think the motion is entirely justified. I urge the government to vote in favour. I even think that a message could be sent. If the senators truly wanted to avoid this sort of non-confidence motion, they have all day today to come and tell us that they have changed their position and that they would be ready to appear before the committee. If that happens, the motion would at least have provided an opportunity, through the resulting public debate, to bring home to all Canadians the need for the Senate to be accountable, the need to be able to know to what use the money people pay through their taxes is being put, and whether this money is being spent on the right things. At the same time, it is a perfect opportunity to launch a debate on whether we should continue to pay for a House of non-elected representatives and whether we can afford to have a House that operates like this.
If I were a senator today, I would have jumped at the opportunity to come and defend the manner in which the money was allocated. By refusing to appear before the Standing Committee on Government Operations, the senators are leaving themselves even more open to criticism of their activities, because those who do not defend themselves must often bow to their critics' version of events.
In the present situation, it is very clear and very obvious that the senators appear to have a great deal of difficulty in defending the way they use their budget. It is a very bad sign, and a very poor message to be sending to the Canadian people, a message which encourages us to ask other questions, and to question the very idea
of the Senate. The members of this House will have the opportunity to do so, thanks to the vote there will be on a motion, and to decide whether or not they are in favour of abolishing the Senate.
The motion, which will be discussed next week, will go still further into the problem. It will raise basic questions such as: Do we need a House whose members are not elected? Do we need a second House?
Finally, this is one way of updating the parliamentary process. Just because an institution has been in place for 125 years is not necessarily a reason for maintaining it. This is but a small example, but in a way the very structure of the country is somewhat the same.
It is not true that, just because Canada was created in 1867, the relationship between the various communities of which it is composed, between the people of Quebec and the people of Canada, must remain the same in future. Populations create their own structures; the structures are not there to be a hindrance and to create inefficiency.
In conclusion, I will state that the Reform Party motion is a valid one. It is too bad that this motion is not votable. I would have liked us to have been able to send a message to the Senate, through a vote in the House, that we here are really frustrated, dissatisfied, and somewhat insulted, by the fact that the senators have not deigned to come before the committee on government operations to defend their votes. As a result, we could tell them: "You do not wish to be held responsible, so we will not make the money available".
If the government were to take such a position, we would really have an opportunity to see which House has the upper hand, since this is an important issue. Which one ought to have the final say, in Canada?
Now I understand from the debate on the motion and from the government's position that the government is ignoring the Senate's inefficiency. It is saying: "This can go on the way it has for several years". Senators representing Senate divisions can carry on this way.
I would say to the people of the Senate divisions of Grandville, La Salle, Repentigny or Thousand Islands: "Call your senator and ask him what he is doing with the money he is responsible for. I know very well, however, that there is a basic problem: Canadians do not know which senator is responsible for their area, because no representations are ever made.
Do you remember seeing senators touring your area to discuss local issues? Never, because they lack the basic credibility of being elected by the people. I think, today, that the Senate is archaic, somewhat of an anachronism. The fact that the senators are refusing to come and defend their budgets is even clearer evidence of this anachronism.
I think the Senate's and senators' behaviour needs correcting. The government must take note of today's debate and require the Senate to provide an accounting. If the Senate refuses, we have one more argument for its abolition.