I have been listening to the words of the member for Vancouver Quadra. Although rigorously legal, his interpretation is that all of the proposed amendments suggested by the hon. member for Gaspé and supported by myself are constitutional amendments and thus there is nothing that can be done. This is not the proper tribunal for discussing it. We are not, therefore, the right ones to discuss it, for we are in the federal Parliament and here we must speak of laws and not constitutions.
I find that most curious. We have looked at laws here, and I have sat on the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development. I recall the famous debate on occupational training.
That was an area of provincial jurisdiction, and yet in Bill C-96, the act to establish the Department of Human Resources Development, the minister awarded himself powers in this area, by making official those powers he had long recognized as his, having long interfered in that area.
During another session, Bill C-28 dealt with financial assistance to students, another area of provincial jurisdiction, education, under the Constitution. Through legislation, the minister made legal his intruding in this area.
I have been a member of the health committee for some weeks, where there was a bill to make the existence of Health Canada official, reinforcing and clarifying its role. It already existed under another name, but now it is really called the Department of Health. An act has been passed to that end, clarifying the powers of the minister, yet health is a provincial jurisdiction.
At that time, the types of things that have been said just now were not being said, for it was OK, it was for the well-being of all Canadians. Each time there is federal intrusion, it is for the good of the people. I have been interested in politics for a long time, and I can remember Réal Caouette's time here. He used to say: "The government has your good at heart, and it will manage to get its hands on your goods as well". I say he was absolutely right.
There are areas which are not in the Constitution: culture, the environment, communications, to name but a few. Since it is not written down, not specified, when we get into a grey area, we know that the Supreme Court will be called upon to decide and will always say that if not set out otherwise, it is a federal area of jurisdiction.
Without going over every recent event, the Prime Minister recently stated, repeating it last night again on Le Point , that he wants a partnership, and what the hon. member for Gaspé is proposing is precisely the possibility of entering into partnerships, reaching agreement, collaborating with the provinces. Why? Because the Constitution was written in 1867, and things have changed for it, as they have for the catechism.
I will soon be 50 years old, so I am entitled to that analogy. When we were in primary school, we read the catechism. There were questions and answers, and we said: "That is the way it is". I was prepared to believe that things did not change. Today, however, perhaps it depends on religion, but sins are not what they used to be. Things have changed. You do not even have to confess to a priest any more. It is changing. Society is changing, but Canada's Constitution is immutable. It cannot be changed.
Recently we were told that, since there was no provision for a province's sovereignty, it was out of the question. They try to convince us that it is immutable and that if it is not provided for it is out of the question. If we listen-I was going to say religiously-to the member for Vancouver Quadra, nothing can be changed. Nothing whatsoever can be changed.
The question is about the impossibility of changing anything, not a comma of what the opposition suggests. I remember-I have been here for three years. When we manage to get a minor amendment on a minuscule word, it is a real victory, because traditionally with this system proposals from the opposition are not accepted. The party in power runs the show. We see it on the sheet we have. If it is a Liberal government proposal, it is good; if it comes from the opposition, it is not.
The people listening to us must be saying: "What is all this?" What does it all mean. It must be changed. Opposition speeches are intended to try to convince the members opposite that, yes, in theory things can be changed. We said: "We are indeed sovereignists, but it is because the system is immutable, there was never any desire to change it".
So those who must prove us wrong must prove that it is amendable, that there is room for improvement and that the opposition has valid things to say. The fact that it is logical ought to be enough. No. There is the party line, and that is the end of that.
If you do not do that, you are saying, like the member for Vancouver Quadra, that the Constitution does not permit that. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, tonight we are talking about things which we should really not be talking about, and I appreciate your extraordinary tolerance, allowing us to talk about something the member for Vancouver Quadra thinks we should not be talking about. But curiously enough, the Chair and its advisors ruled our amendments, the amendments moved by the member for Gaspé, to be in order, which means that they can be debated and voted on.
The member for Vancouver Quadra says: "It might be in order, we can discuss it, but in any case, it will lead nowhere, the Constitution does not permit changes". This is a strange situation, and since we cannot make further changes, I will spare my voice, but I find this rather bizarre legally speaking. This is quite a lesson in democracy for the young people who are listening to us. Efforts made to get people interested in politics are all for naught when the answer is: "This is not in the constitutional catechism, and when its is not in the constitutional catechism, there is no salvation".