Mr. Speaker, what needs to be understood and what those opposite are having a hard time understanding is that, although they tell us they want to include such definitions in order to comply with international law, one of the very first sentences of the bill provides that its aim is to permit Canada to affirm its sovereignty over its waters. What I want to say is that we can also affirm our sovereignty; we are sovereign in what we want to do and say.
We can therefore, in keeping with the new convention on the law of the sea, still act imaginatively. We can design this bill according to the desires and needs of those involved and of the people who make up Canada. I repeat: the provinces form Canada.
The problem I am trying to reflect in this bill is the greyness of the powers, the jurisdictions and the definition of the maritime territories in this bill. Right off in committee, I stated that I had some concern about the government moving so quickly with this sort of bill and I felt some questions were unresolved.
I keep coming back to the fact that the minister of fisheries at the time, Mr. Tobin, had promised me the bill was not written to mislead any province. It was to serve as a strategy toward a sort of partnership. When you want to be somebody's partner you take the time to listen to what they have to say and to respond to their insecurities. The fact is that we will have to live with this bill we are considering for a long time. More particularly, we will have to work with the wording it contains.
If, as a Quebec representative on this today, I start off with concerns, how can anyone believe there was good faith on the other side? If, before signing the contract, I tell them I am having difficulty with this or that clause, which needs clarification, and they tell me it is not necessary, if it is unimportant in their eyes, why not include it?
All, or nearly all, of the motions I submitted-I am not interested in reading them all again for people's benefit, as there is not enough time to do so-are for the purpose of clarifying that this bill will not encroach upon existing rights, existing though not perhaps claimed by the provinces. Why, then, is there such a rush to do away with that, and to speak of the provinces as little as possible? As we progress, every time we speak of a definition of territory, I add "provided nothing abrogates or derogates from the rights, past or present, of the provinces".
I try to make it as clear as possible that we need total clarity on this. Why is it that they keep taking us back to square one every time, by saying "No"? It reminds one of the principle of least effort. They refuse to budge on certain points, and not minor points either. Perhaps I am running out of words this evening. If we hold this to be important, if there are concerns, what have they done to alleviate those concerns? Nothing.
They say it is not important, that there is nothing to be feared. If there is indeed nothing to be feared, let it be put in, let the regulations be changed, let it be added. That would make things a lot clearer afterward. Why do I also insist in Motion No. 31 that this clause does not "apply, either directly or indirectly, in respect of lakes, rivers and their estuaries"? Because there are many of them in our regions. Because we would like to have a say and because Quebec's relations with the various stakeholders, including municipalities and the environment ministry, are already
complicated enough. So why should the federal government come barging in with this bill? Why?
I have been told there is no reason to worry. That is no reason for me to stop worrying and start telling myself that there is no risk, that I should not get involved in this. We are clearly saying that this bill should not apply to lakes, rivers and their estuaries. I am told it would be frivolous to exclude estuaries. I do not disagree that the first glass of water from the Saguenay River will flow past the Gaspé region before reaching Nova Scotia and then Newfoundland.
I do not disagree it is a chain reaction. We are not saying we do not want to co-operate with them. Every time we talk about relations strategies, we indicate to them that, if they want things to work, the partner, that is to say, the province or provinces concerned, must be involved from the start. As soon as the minister gets an idea, he shares it right away with his provincial counterpart. Likewise, when a federal official gets an idea, he should be able to contact his counterpart right away to see if there is a problem.
In such cases, both levels would share the problems, but for this to happen, it must be clear and well understood that part of the territory in question is ours and that this is the reason why we will have joint responsibility and why management responsibilities will be shared. I am realize that the Liberals are just trying to hog the whole thing, basically telling us: "Mover over, everything is under control". Not so fast, there are problems.
To our friend opposite, the parliamentary secretary to the fisheries minister, who said in his preamble that the intent was to modernize international law, I reply that the United States also read the Convention of the Law of the Sea. Having read it, the U.S. still saw fit to specify that, while they have sovereign rights over their oceans, coastal states-that is to say U.S. coastal states-have a responsibility. I think it is up to three miles off the coast.
How is the maritime territory shared with the provinces and the provinces' responsibility recognized?
I do not wish to start a dispute but I want to call the attention of the hon. members opposite to the fact that the modern thing to do may be to give management over to the provinces, as the U.S. have been doing with member states for quite a while now. This way, U.S. states deal with the big boss in Washington. If every power is taken away right from the start, what is there left to talk about?
I say it again. In December, the government passed a motion saying that Quebec was a distinct society and undertook to enshrine it in the Constitution and to have it reflected in all other Canadian legislation. Here is a chance to acknowledge Quebec's desire to deal with its own problems and participate in the management process with them, but they do not want us to.
Do not be surprised if you see me rise again and again this evening, Mr. Speaker, because I have a lot to say on this subject and I will keep talking until I get through to them. The night could be long; they are quite hard-headed.