Madam Speaker, I wish I could say I was pleased to participate in this debate on Bill C-45. However, I cannot say that. Rather we should be debating the private members' bill of the member for York South-Weston, which called for the repeal of section 745 of the Criminal Code.
Bill C-45 is yet another half-hearted Liberal justice reform. A moment ago the member for Saskatoon-Dundurn, one of the few members of the governing party to debate the issue, said that Reform was being unrealistic, was being too severe in dealing with crime. I would debate that matter with him. I wish more of his colleagues were here to justify their reasons for this bill. I would point out that when the private members' bill of the member for York South-Weston was at second reading in the House, 74 members from the Liberal Party voted for that bill, which would
indicate there are many people on the other side of the House who do not support Bill C-45.
Another example of the half-hearted measures that the government is taking is its so-called revamp of the Young Offenders Act. We attempted to put real teeth and real meaning into those amendments and the government refused.
I refer to an incident in Toronto not long ago where four youngsters took a 13-year old girl into an apartment and raped her. The leader was an 11-year old boy who simply laughed at the police, at the justice system and at the Young Offenders Act when he was called to account for the crime.
Two older boys were given sentences of two or three years. But all that was done to the young fellow who led this enterprise was for the judge to call him a blatant liar. I am sure the young fellow laughed all the way home at that one.
Another case occurred in my riding in the town of Sidney on Vancouver Island. A young teenager was pulled off his bicycle, knocked to the ground and kicked to death against the curb by two juvenile offenders. In its wisdom the court raised their crime to adult court. After they were found guilty the sentence was two years. Is this really indicative of justice? A youngster was dead at the age of 17 and his murderers get two years? I question the validity of this type of justice.
My colleague from Surrey-White Rock-South Langley mentioned that at the time the death sentence was abolished and the 25-year parole eligibility was debated, undoubtedly there were strong feelings on both sides that 25 years was not enough to pay for deliberately taking a life, for first degree murder.
I will confess right now that I am not for the death penalty. I feel there is too much chance of a mistake being made and an innocent life being taken. However, I would advocate that a life sentence means life. The remainder of that individual's life should be served in prison. If he or she should subsequently be proved to be innocent, then he or she is still there to be released. If that proof does not come forward, then the individual should spend the remainder of his or her natural life in prison.
Right now of course we have the provision of statutory release, which sees criminals sentenced to 10 years who are eligible for parole in far less time. If we add good behaviour to that, the individual will quite often spend less than half of his or her sentence in jail.
I would agree that there are non-violent crimes for which a prison sentence is not only expensive for society but inappropriate because these are not dangerous people who will hurt other people. However, when we get into the dangerous offender category we have to be very certain that they and anyone who would contemplate carrying out a violent crime are aware that the consequences, if they are convicted, will be severe.
The problem is that the murdered person has a true life sentence. There is no recourse, no compensation, no nothing. That person is gone for life. That life has been given up. The person who took that life should also bear that punishment. The murderer should be incarcerated for the rest of his or her natural life in payment for the crime.
What about the families of the victims? This is particularly appropriate for this section which allows a first degree murderer to apply for parole after only 15 years. Those families have gone through hell at the loss of their loved ones. They have suffered the trauma of having to identify the body, of having to hear the gory details of how their loved one died. Then, as they gradually accept the inevitability of what has happened and make accommodations for their loss, a short 15 years downstream they have to go through the whole thing again.
What we need to do in punishing murderers, first degree murderers in particular, is to go to consecutive sentencing, not concurrent sentencing. Why on earth should an individual like Clifford Olson, who was convicted of killing 11 youngsters, get one life sentence when he should have received 11 life sentences for his crimes? How can we condone that?
I would say the same about Paul Bernardo. He was an individual who manipulated, tortured and cruelly murdered two young ladies and perhaps more. He got one life sentence. He will be eligible for parole in 15 years because of this legislation, if it passes, which in all likelihood it will due to the government's massive majority.
The hon. member for Saskatoon-Dundurn took issue with my colleague's statement about the recidivism rate: 10 per cent and 90 per cent. Ten per cent reoffend and 90 per cent do not. My concern is not so much for the murderer, but rather the potential victims. Is a 10 per cent risk acceptable? These people have proven that they will go to the extreme of deliberately taking another person's life. Should their incarceration not take precedence over the danger they present to an unknown victim on their release?
In the summer of 1987 convicted murderer Daniel Gingras, while on a temporary day pass from an Edmonton institution, killed two people before being apprehended.
Again in 1988, Joseph Fredericks, a convicted sadistic paedophile, while on parole abducted, raped and fatally stabbed a young 11-year old boy in southern Ontario.
Bill C-45 should not be passed and section 745 should be abolished.