Mr. Speaker, I find the comment of my hon. colleague from York South-Weston interesting.
The government side has decided not to include itself in this debate today. It is interesting because the changes that were made to section 745 were actually brought in by a member of the present Liberal government. They were brought in at a time when there was discussion regarding how to handle capital punishment or how to handle getting rid of the death penalty.
Canadians were led to believe during that discussion that the saw-off for getting rid of the death sentence was going to be incarceration for a minimum of 25 years.
Although it is a life sentence, the eligibility for parole is 25 years. I would imagine at that time-not having been around for that debate-there was a great concern that 25 years was still not adequate for taking a person's life.
I know that debate continues at least in my riding as to whether the deliberate taking of a life should be first degree murder, that there should not be the element for capital punishment.
Canadian laws have changed. There was a time when it was capital murder. One was convicted either of manslaughter where a death happened not deliberately but through an event that the person was involved in or of deliberately murdering somebody. It was then capital murder.
The legislatures since that time decided there could be a difference. They determined there would be first degree murder and second degree murder.
That is what our courts have been able to use to determine the severity of the punishment that an individual should receive if they are responsible for the death of another individual.
Sometimes they determined there was no intention and the death occurred through an accident or unintentionally. Manslaughter was the conviction. Manslaughter being a conviction does not have a minimum sentence. It can be no incarceration or it can be incarceration to whatever degree.
Second degree murder was determined when the individual did not deserve a 25 year minimum sentence. With a minimum sentence of 10 years, second degree murder became an option. It was still murder with intent. If there was no intent, then it would be manslaughter.
Legislatures have already provided the faint hope or the ability for the courts to say "this individual, although there was intent, does not deserve to sit in jail for 25 years".
The courts have used that over the years. In my province two weeks ago a minimum 25 year sentence did not seem to be justified. Instead of convicting the person on first degree, they convicted them on second degree.
I would suggest that in itself is enough, that it is really a contempt of the court process and of the judge and jury who made the original decision after looking at the facts of giving a first degree murder conviction minimum sentence of 25 years and then later saying "we did not mean 25 years, 15 is good enough".
If the judge and the jury at the time when that individual was sentenced felt that 25 years was too much, was not an appropriate sentence, they would have convicted that individual of second degree murder.
I suggest that Canadians feel the same way, that they are losing respect for our courts because they precisely see what is going on today. The courts determine that an individual deserves the minimum incarceration period of 25 years. Then the courts down the road change that decision.
Canadians are losing faith. The Canadians who were there at the time of the event when the 25 year minimum sentence was handed out probably could live with that. With the passage of time after 15 years and they see this individual applying to be released early, they lose faith in the system that told them the replacement for capital punishment was to be a minimum incarceration of 25 years. I suggest the Canadian public feels betrayed. The Canadian public is expecting this Liberal government with its massive majority to do something about it.
I was part of the justice committee when it dealt with Bill C-41. We were looking at the sentencing legislation and all the changes that should be made to it. There was an opportunity at that time for the Liberal government to look at consecutive sentences and at abolishing section 745. My Reform Party colleagues who sat with me on that committee presented those amendments.
It was not just the Liberal members of the committee, the Bloc members of the committee also denied that opportunity. The amendments to the legislation were denied at committee stage and therefore did not get into the House for debate.
It surprises me, if my hon. Liberal and Bloc colleagues are in contact with the people in their constituencies, that they do not realize the mood of Canadians has changed. There is a feeling that our justice system does not work and that justice is not being meted out. I feel very strongly that the changes proposed by Bill C-45 do not come anywhere near addressing the serious concerns of Canadians.
I find it preposterous that the justice minister can tell Canadians that a vicious, violent murder of one person is not as serious as somebody who kills two people.
In my dealings with the justice community I was told of an instance, I believe it was south of the border but the same mentality is present in Canada, where an individual was skinned alive before they put a bullet go his head. The purpose for that was to send a message. No one can tell me that the horrendous killing of that individual is any less horrific than somebody who kills two people because there happens to be two people in the house when they go berserk.
I suggest those kinds of considerations are taken up when the original charges are before the court. When they are before the court the judge and jury of the day look at all the evidence when they mete our the sentence. It is those kinds of determinations which determine whether a person gets a first degree conviction or a second degree conviction. Anything more than that is not necessary. There is no purpose for having section 745 in the Criminal Code. There is absolutely no purpose to give someone the opportunity for early release when the court initially determined that the sentence was just based on the facts of the day.
Canadians are concerned with the concept of justice. It is not that they want revenge. It is not that they want to be unfair or do something unjustified. They want respect for the courts and they want to see the decisions made by the courts upheld.
Section 745 of the Criminal Code can put aside perhaps months of testimony and evidence which has been presented to the court. It can put aside the hours the jury spent deliberating whether the person deserved first degree with a minimum sentence of 25 years or second degree with a minimum of 10 years. That section of the Criminal Code puts aside all that time and effort, consideration and evidence. That should not be.
I join with my Reform colleagues and some members opposite, particularly the individual who saw that the will of the Liberal
Party was not there and who chose to sit as an independent. I believe that individual realized the Liberal Party does not have a long term goal. It does not seem to have the will to follow through in representing and respecting the wishes of the Canadian public which elected it.
It is interesting that this hon. colleague introduced a private member's bill. He is upset and concerned, as many of us are, that a committee of this House chose to disregard his private member's bill and refused to bring it back to the House for debate after it had passed through the House at second reading.
I would suggest it is time for the Liberal government to start showing the Canadian people that it has the guts and the will to do what is right for the Canadian public and not just worry about something that has been placed in legislation which has shown not to be appropriate and should not be there. Instead of debating whether or not amendments should be made, we should be debating the private member's bill introduced by the member for York South-Weston which deals with abolishing the section. I would support 100 per cent dealing with that private member's bill which seeks to abolish section 745.