Mr. Speaker, I have two points to make in reply. First, I know that for 10 years the death sentence was not carried out. The average sentence was, at that time, from 12 to 13 years. I have heard criminal experts say on various programs that the average sentence-I say this to the hon. member who is not listening, I am not supposed to say that but I will say it just the same-the average sentence when the death sentence still existed but was not enforced was not 25 years but around 12 or 13 years. Those are the facts.
I have every reason to believe the people I heard on these programs. They are authorities on the subject and they are reliable. I also read some reputable texts. If at the time the actual sentence served was 12 or 13 years, the introduction of a sentence of 25 years with possibility of parole after 15 years did not mean a lighter sentence. Considering the system that had existed for 10 years, it was more severe, according to my understanding.
We must call things by their proper names. It seems to me that is elementary. My second point is that as soon as we have the requisite certainty, and I think that with these three instruments we have ways to arrive at that moral certainty, as soon as we have that certainty, why leave someone in prison? To keep him from committing another crime? We know that is not true. The death sentence was no deterrent.
Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. member has ever experienced the prison environment, from the outside, of course. I suggest he do so and find out what it is like. In many cases, the prison environment is a lot like hell. I did not say purgatory, I said hell.