I just dealt with that argument. If only the member had been listening instead of babbling away over there he might not be yelling at me now. He can yell to his heart's content. I have some remarks to make and I suggest he sit and listen.
In my submission the rehabilitation of the offender is not enhanced by a sentence in excess of 15 years. I do not think we would find a criminologist in the country who would suggest that a longer sentence assists in rehabilitation.
Third, I turn to the deterrent effect of a lengthy sentence. A life sentence, the sentence for murder and which is conveniently forgotten a great deal in this debate, in my view is as great a deterrent as this law should have and does have. I submit it is a great deterrent for murder.
The point is most murders, from my limited knowledge in this area, are crimes of passion. I do not think the offender sits and thinks of the consequences of his or her acts when the murder is taking place.
I know hon. members may suggest that if the sentence were heavier fewer murders would take place, but that is certainly not the experience here or in any other country. A heavy sentence is entirely appropriate for murder, but a lengthy prison sentence in my view does not act as a deterrent to others. I think the fact that a murder has taken place is the deterrent. It is a crime that is abhorrent to most other people in our society, and justifiably so.
I turn finally then to the question of punishment. The question really is do we improve our law by increasing the length of time served in jail in terms of punishment of the offender? Have we achieved something that benefits our society as a whole?
I have a real objection to the view that we improve the punishment of a victim by lengthening the sentence. I say so because I am concerned that as a society we judge the seriousness of an offence by the length of a sentence. Yet virtually every offence in our Criminal Code and virtually every offence in any statute is punishable by a fine and/or imprisonment or imprisonment in lieu of payment of the fine.
When I was practising law and I went to court to see people getting charged with speeding, for example, the fine was $100 or five days. Someone could serve five days or pay but they had a choice. They could go to jail or pay. Why would we ever give anybody the option? Why is a fine not mandatory and if they do not pay their fine they lose their licence, or their car is taken away or something like that? Why do we send people to jail at public expense when there is no reason from the point of view of protection of the public to send them there?
Surely as a public policy matter the reason people should be imprisoned is to protect the public. It should be a matter of last resort. We send people to prison when someone is going to be a risk to others. When they are not, we try to devise another punishment that fits the crime but is not one that involves great public expense, which imprisonment involves, again conveniently forgotten as we discuss this bill, and which may involve substantial damage to the offender, perhaps unintentional or perhaps intentional but damage to the offender.
I am not suggesting when I talk about other punishments that I am agreeing with the hon. member for Calgary Northeast who wants to bring in whipping, caning and spanking.