The hon. member says they do not have any money. That is not always true, especially in shoplifting cases.
Why, for example, would they not look at other alternatives like requiring extensive community service instead of sending them to jail at public expense? This alternative, in my view, is not explored, possibly because the law does not allow it or the policy of the law does not recommend it and because the public expectation is that if the person committed a serious offence, bang, he has to go to jail. There has to be a jail term and punishment.
What do we have for murder? A jail sentence is required but the penalty for murder is a life sentence. I have no quarrel with that. It is entirely appropriate because there will be some murderers, and hon. members opposite talk about these particular persons all the time in their speeches, who in my view should never be released because they pose a danger to the public and should remain locked up.
On the other hand, there are a large number of persons who have committed murder who pose no danger, who are remorseful and who wish they had never done it and, in my view, ought to be released and become contributing members in our society again.
That is why I have difficulty with the whole concept of minimum sentences in the Criminal Code. I do not agree with minimum sentences. In my view there should be judicial discretion, particularly on the question of release. The National Parole Board is perfectly well equipped to make decisions on who is and who is not a danger to the public and release accordingly.
I have some additional figures to support my suggestion on the statistics relating to sentences for murder. I want to point out some of these figures to hon. members opposite because they may have forgotten them.
When we looked at the capital punishment issue in Parliament some years ago some figures were prepared concerning the period prior to the moratorium on capital punishment which started on January 3, 1968. From 1961 to 1968, 28 cases, in the case of murder, were sentenced to death and commuted to life. The average time served in those 28 cases was 12 years before parole. There were five life sentences without having been sentenced to death with the average time served being 6.2 years before conditional release was granted by the parole board.
From 1968 to 1974 there were 44 sentenced to death, with 13.5 years the average sentence served; 85 were sentenced to life with 7.7 years being the average sentence served.
If those figures were adequate punishment then, and I would suggest they were, why is it so inadequate now? Why do we have to lock them up for so much longer today at public expense, at a cost of $40,000, $50,000 or $60,000 a year depending on the level of security. However, of course Reform does not care about money. All it wants to do is cut pensions.
I want to turn to the cases that have occurred from 1976 to 1984, in other words the experience since this act came into force. Of course, people who were sentenced before the act came into force were unaffected by its provisions. Capital murder, 45 cases, number of years served, 15.46; non-capital murder, 268 cases, average number of years served, 10.43. These are averages. If these are adequate punishment why are we proposing by this bill to increase the number to 25 years with virtually no chance of getting out? I submit that it does not make sense.
I want to say that if 15 years was good enough for the last 20 years, we do not need to increase it to 25 years now.
I want to turn to Matthew's Gospel and read one line: "Always treat others as you would like them to treat you. That is the law and the prophets".
The hon. members may say that if they were guilty of murder they would like to go to prison for life and stay there until the end of their natural days. Perhaps at their age 25 years would expire before that happened anyway.
I want to say this. After a year or two they would wish they had not done that. They would wish they were out. I am sure that is the case. I have visited these prisons. I know what they are like. I know the people there all want to get out. They do not want to stay despite the suggestion of hon. members opposite.
In my view if we were to treat these others as we would have them treat us, I do not agree with locking them up without any opportunity to apply for parole no matter how good they have been, no matter how hard they try, no matter what efforts they make a reconciliation or whatever feelings of remorse they may have. I do not think those are grounds for keeping someone locked up forever.
I turn to hon. members and suggest again that they reread the story of the Good Samaritan. The question asked at the end of the story is who was neighbour to the man who fell among thieves. It was the person who had pity on him, who had compassion on him.
These people are our neighbours whether we like it or not. Some of us might not like it, but they are our neighbours.