Debates of Oct. 22nd, 1997

Canada Co-Operatives Act

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

I would ask the hon. member for Surrey Central to please be pertinent in his comments during this debate.

[Gurmant Grewal, Reform, Surrey Central, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am well aware that I am discussing Bill C-5, but there is a strong desire and need to mention this particular fact because for a surprise, we see that this bill, presented by the Liberals, is a strange thing.

In most of the previous bills, they have been dealing with how to squeeze money from the taxpayers who are taxed to death. For a surprise, we are looking into this matter. This is a matter for accountability. I refer to this simply because we are amazed and surprised how this bill is presented and quoted by them. I will go to my debate.

The Reform Party whip, the hon. member from Fraser Valley, has researched this same sort of behaviour by the Liberals which I mentioned earlier. I believe that there is a need to mention this because it is pertinent and important here.

He found that a Montreal accounting firm that gave $87,000 to the Liberals over the past few years has received $20 million in contracts from CIDA. I suppose that the true reason that the Liberals have it right this time with respect to Bill C-5 is that somebody else wrote this bill for them.

The Liberals have, in fact, very little to do with this bill. That is the reason my colleague from the other side has pointed out, because they have to do very little to this bill, that it is not written by them. It is given to them by the co-operative themselves.

I would guess that most of the Liberal backbenchers, especially the neglected, lonely and largely unknown members from Ontario may not have even read Bill C-5. Liberal MPs who are not in the cabinet do not have to read this bill because they are told by their Liberal Party whip how they are supposed to cast their vote, how to behave in committee and what to say in the media and to their constituents. Their whip does all those things for them.

The good constituents of Surrey Central know that, as their member of Parliament, I am free to vote the will of my constituents. My constituents tell me, not my party whip, how to cast the vote of Surrey Central in this House.

Again, I point out that this legislation was written for the Liberals by the co-operatives in Canada to modernize the current definition of co-operative basis, improve the governance rules, increase financing possibilities, amalgamation and other flexibilities needed by many of Canada's co-operatives.

In fact, my constituents and I are glad to be of some service and assistance to the more than 10,000 co-operatives operating in Canada by casting the vote Surrey Central has in this House in favour of approving the passage of this Bill C-5.

Most sectors of the Canadian economy have co-operatives. Co-operatives have been a very successful component in our economy. In fact, many co-operatives are non-financial co-operatives. These co-operatives serve many sectors of our economy, including agriculture, consumers, fishing, forestry, health, child care, housing and community development.

The largest amount of co-operatives in Canada exist in the agriculture sector. These co-operatives include marketing co-operatives as well as those involved in supply, production and services.

Canada's co-operatives employ more than 133,000 Canadians. Canadian co-operatives have over 14.1 million members, which is about half of the population of this wonderful country.

On this side of the House we are anxious to support anything which will help Canadians continue to be employed. We want to do everything we can to create jobs. We want to ensure fair treatment of the small business community and our co-operatives.

Bill C-5 will assist in ensuring a level playing field for our co-operatives to be competitive in the business industry.

By supporting an initiative that will modernize and assist the work of co-operatives in Canada, Bill C-5 will do something to help overtaxed Canadians who are struggling to find jobs. The Liberal Party has done nothing to create jobs for unemployed Canadians; however, it has killed jobs with taxes.

The billions of dollars the Liberals have spent on infrastructure—which is the wrong approach since the Liberals have no vision—have failed to change the unemployment rate in Canada since 1993. For 86 consecutive months Canada's unemployment rate has been hovering at about 9%.

The co-operative movement in Canada now reaches most sectors of the Canadian economy. Canadians co-operatives compete head to head with national and international businesses and corporations. It is important that the federal government support this movement, particularly with the globalization of businesses.

The Reform Party supports measures to ensure the successful operation of the marketplace, including promoting competition. We recognize private sector investment as an important source of capital for Canadian businesses, unlike the Liberals, who have been patting themselves on their backs day after day, even in question period.

We believe that the private sector is the key to job creation in Canada. Small and medium size firms in Canada could create more jobs if they were not taxed to death.

Most jobs in Canada are created by small business. That is not what the Liberals believe. They continue to spend hard earned tax dollars on public make-work programs which provide few short term jobs. Ask any Liberal on the other side and he or she will put you to sleep rambling on about what the Liberal government has done to create jobs for Canadians. Any Liberal spin doctor can give you a seemingly endless litany of things the Liberals have done to create jobs, but we know that the Liberals just do not have it right.

Governments do not create jobs. People create jobs. Our small businesses and entrepreneurs create jobs, but they cannot do that when the smiling Minister of Finance cripples their businesses with taxes. How can they do it?

The Liberals have reduced the deficit by increasing taxes. They have frozen the unemployment rate since they took over the reins of the federal government from the Tories.

Bill C-5 is a good bill because it addresses the needs of the private sector. Canada's private sector is in the best position to determine what it needs to be competitive. For once, we have the Liberals allowing the federal government to respond to the needs of the private sector. It is a miracle.

Not only that, but it appears that the Liberals are allowing us to have a debate on Bill C-5. We were only allowed to debate Bill C-2, which was the largest tax increase in Canadian history, for a very brief time, less than seven hours. Following that the Liberals only allowed one day, a couple of hours, for Bill C-10 to be debated in the House. It was another tax grab. That we are allowed to debate Bill C-5 is another miracle. I hope that I will continue to see such miracles in this House for all bills which come before the House in the future.

We on this side of the House give a clear warning to the Liberals that we do not want debate on any bill to be suddenly cancelled, particularly those which dig deep into the pockets of Canadians.

These are the same Liberals who cancelled the Somalia inquiry. Never before in the history of our country has any government shut down a commission of judicial inquiry. The Liberals did. The Somalia inquiry was only two-thirds of the way through its work when the Liberals shut it down. The inquiry was very close to analysing events at the department of defence that took place under the Liberal government.

In Bill C-10, the bill that only saw the light of this House for a matter of a few short hours before the Liberals shut down debate, we saw that the Liberals cannot even do something as simple as negotiate a tax treaty with another country without trying to figure out a way to squeeze more money out of the already overtaxed Canadian taxpayers.

Income tax take has been rising steadily in this country. The Liberals are balancing the budget on the backs of Canadian taxpayers. Canadians know that the average family's purchasing power has been decreasing since 1993. Personal income tax revenues have increased significantly since the Liberals have been in power.

The savings rate for Canadians has dropped from 10% in 1992 to less than 1%—

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Madam Speaker, I can understand that our hon. colleague is new to this place but one must not wander too far away from the subject matter. We are discussing co-operatives.

We are interested in the opposition's views on co-operatives. Besides, if we start dealing with what the Reform Party has done wrong, I could speak for a very long time. I could indeed, but I would like us to stick to the matter at hand and discuss Bill C-5.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

I would remind the hon. member to please keep the debate pertinent.

[Gurmant Grewal, Reform, Surrey Central, BC]

Yes, Madam Speaker, I appreciate that but on the other side, I have to justify why we are supporting this bill. What we have seen in the past on the other side is why we have to mention these things. These are bitter truths. I am not making up these figures.

The finance minister has just introduced the largest tax hike in Canada, a 73% increase in CPP premiums, that will cost $10 billion to the Canadian taxpayers. Those are the reasons why we have to mention these things. They are the ones who are not creating jobs. On this side of the House we have to say these things because we will support any motion or bill that will create jobs.

To summarize what I have been saying, Canadians want our federal government to be effective and efficient in terms of leading our nation to prosperity. Bill C-5 is a lesson for the Liberals. If they do their work honestly and well then everyone in this House can give their support to such work.

When the Liberals are pork-barreling, when they are handing out patronage appointments, when they turn their backs on the victims of crime, when they hide their heads in the sand like ostriches and ignore the unemployed and when they refuse to assist our private sector to be competitive in the global economy, we will hold the government's feet to the fire.

In conclusion, on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central, I am casting my vote in support of Bill C-5 and the strengthening of co-operatives in Canada.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Madam Speaker, I listened with some interest to the member opposite with respect to what he was saying and, of course, in typical Reform fashion, preaching the politics of fear and the politics of doom and gloom. It struck me, that wonderful picture we saw in the paper today of Frederik Eaton with the Leader of the Opposition, whether or not that was the kind of thing they were discussing last night at the fund-raising dinner held in Toronto.

In reality, the government has created over the course of the past four years a climate of economic growth unparalleled since the 1950s and 1960s.

All we have to do, which the hon. member should do sometime, is look at the evidence. The evidence indicates that we have the lowest interest rates that we have had for 30 years, housing starts are up, growth is up and consumer sales are up. The government has done a very good job, unlike what the member opposite would lead Canadians to believe.

I was most intrigued by his statement with respect to how he reflects his constituents. I wonder if he could lay out precisely for the House how he goes about scientifically taking the pulse of what his constituents tell him to say on any given issue. I would be interested in hearing whether he polls, whether he has town hall meetings, what he does to ensure that all the people in his riding have their voices heard.

[Gurmant Grewal, Reform, Surrey Central, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to answer the hon. member's question. He did not read Bill C-5. He has no concrete question to ask on the bill so he is asking a question on what he believes he has been doing on the other side when his whip tells him to vote in support of the bill or against the bill.

On this side of the House we keep completely in touch with our constituents. We meet with them frequently. We have a free right to vote on this side of the House.

I sent a survey to my constituents asking for their views on different matters and I have received encouraging responses from them on various issues. I will be putting forward their concerns in the House.

Unlike the other side of the House, I am free to vote the way my constituents want.

[Walt Lastewka, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member from Essex.

I rise today on the occasion of second reading to the proposed legislation regarding the Canada co-operatives act. This bill marks another step in this government's effort to provide modern up to date framework laws that establish fair and efficient marketplace rules.

In the past we have passed legislation to modernize and streamline laws from bankruptcy, insolvency to copyright. These framework laws are an important part of Industry Canada's contribution to the government's jobs and growth agenda.

The bill before us deals with non-financial co-operatives. Financial co-ops or credit unions were reformed in the last parliament with the passage of the Co-operative Credit Associations Act.

The value of Canada's co-operatives can be found when we look at the kinds of principles they instil in their members and their communities, principles such as democratic control and concern for their members, principles such as community development and education for the young. For the better part of this century co-operatives have prospered in Canada as an alternative form to business enterprise.

In communities across Canada co-operatives have proven that it is possible to flourish in a market economy with principles that emphasize community participation, democratic equality and co-operation.

That being said, it is true that even though co-ops are a unique and distinctive form of business organization they nevertheless compete in a market economy against business corporations. For example, retail co-operatives compete against the Canadian Tires, the Loblaws, the Wal-Marts, the Price Clubs and so on.

Survival in this marketplace depends on innovation and flexibility. It depends on getting the best advice from board members who are knowledgeable of the business world. In this environment co-operatives have been competing for years with their hands tied behind their backs because the marketplace framework laws governing these organizations restrict their freedom to make some choices needed to respond to changing demands, to changing competition and to changing markets.

These co-operative associations work closely with their members. They discuss their draft model act within the co-operative movement. When they have a draft bill ready they approach the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, responsible for co-operatives, and the Minister of Industry, responsible for marketplace framework laws.

This is a good way of preparing legislation, working co-operatively with organizations and the government in partnership to make things happen. I hope we see more of these examples in the future.

Industry Canada had to assure itself that the draft legislation met the requirements of the contemporary marketplace framework laws. The bill before us governs co-operatives that are incorporated federally. Most non-financial co-operatives are incorporated in the province in which they do business. This means the bill before us today affects only a small portion of non-financial co-operatives in Canada. But the relatively small number of businesses affected directly by this bill should not detract from the importance of this bill.

The bill creates a Canada co-operatives act that provides co-operatives with the same flexibility now enjoyed by federally incorporated businesses. However, it still maintains the key co-operative principles essential in any co-operative legislation. It leaves the choice to adopt the new business oriented measures in the hands of the membership, the members.

To help co-operatives compete more effectively in the marketplace, the bill provides more flexibility to recruit directors from outside the membership. At least two-thirds of directors of the co-operative have to be members or representatives of those members of co-operatives, corporations or entities. One-third of the board can be from outside. If the co-op issues investment shares, members will decide on that. In each case it is the members who decide.

In other words, this bill enables the co-operatives to draw on the expertise of those who can help guide the co-operative whether or not they are members of the co-operative themselves. At the same time, however, the members themselves continue to make the fundamental decisions that set the rules for the co-op. These include the articles of incorporation, the bylaws, the right to make proposals at any annual meeting and the ability to request special meetings of the members.

In short, this bill gives co-operatives the best of both worlds. It continues to promote the distinctive features of co-operatives that have made them such an important force in Canada's economy. At the same it provides a modern, flexible, business type set of tools to allow co-ops to compete against other forms of business on a level playing field. I hope hon. members will join me in supporting this bill.

[Susan Whelan, Liberal, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to rise today to speak on a bill that is so important for the health and prosperity of the Canadian economy, especially as far as rural and remote communities are concerned.

I want to talk about co-operatives in sectors like agriculture, fisheries and forestry, co-operatives providing energy to remote communities and serving aboriginal communities.

As of 1995 there were over 617,000 members of agricultural co-operatives in Canada. These co-ops were responsible for almost $16.3 billion in sales. Types of co-ops in the agricultural sector include marketing co-ops which account for 34% of the membership and realize 73% of the revenue. They are responsible for marketing some 57% of the market share in dairy products, 59% in the grains and oilseed sector and 47% in the poultry and egg sector.

Take for example the Agropur co-operative in Granby, Quebec. It is currently the largest producer and distributor of fancy cheese and whey in Canada. It is represented in the yogurt and fresh deserts sector by Ultima Foods Inc., a company co-owned by Agropur and Agrifoods International Co-operative Limited, of British Columbia. In 1995, Agropur's sales figure exceeded $1 billion. It has 4,500 members and 2,200 employees.

Agricultural co-ops also include those involved in production and services. One of the most successful producer co-ops is the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool, the largest co-op in Canada. It was formed by farmers in 1924 to handle their wheat harvest. It has come a long way.

In 1995 it had annual sales of almost $3 billion and handled 60% of the total grain movement in the province. In recent years it has successfully diversified into valued added processing, bakery supply and manufacturing, fertilizer manufacturing, an ethanol plant, biotechnology development and a host of other areas.

We can see the impact of co-operatives in the energy sector in Alberta. At one time the rural electrification program carried out by co-operatives in Alberta accounted for almost 90% of the electricity supplied to the province's farmers.

Those co-ops are fewer in number today. Many of them have sold their assets and responsibilities to power companies, but even while the number of co-ops in Alberta's electricity grid is decreasing the importance of natural gas co-ops to supply Alberta farms is increasing. In 1995 these co-operatives accounted for over 54% of the total sales of energy co-operatives in Canada.

Consumer co-operatives are also having an influence on the rural economy. Federated Co-operatives Limited, a federally regulated co-operative, is the second largest Canadian co-operative in terms of revenue.

In 1995 it earned $2.1 billion in sales. It is a supply, production and services co-operative that provides retail co-ops with food, petroleum, seed, hardware and building products, crop supplies, livestock feed and family fashions. It also provides a number of support services such as training, as well as computer, audit, advertising, legal and communication services. It owns the Consumers Co-operative Refineries Limited of Regina, seven feed plants, a plywood plant, a sawmill and the Grocery People Limited retail chain.

In the fishery sector co-operatives have managed through the tough times since the 1992 cod moratorium. Their strength lies in their people. During tough times these people stand together behind their co-op. We have a situation, for example, where despite the moratorium there are still over 9,000 members of fishing co-operatives. We can find a number of success stories in the fishing sector.

In Prince Edward Island the Tignish Fisheries Co-operative Limited has be canning lobster since 1925. It has 250 employees and in 1995 had $14 million in sales. As production moves from canning to specialty packaging the co-op expects that it will need to hire more people and keep them working longer.

Forestry co-operatives are enjoying phenomenal success. Their membership has increased by more than 63% between 1985 and 1995, and their revenue has gone up 247%.

They are doing particularly well in Quebec. In the Saguenay—Lac-St-Jean region, for instance, the Co-opérative forestière Laterrière-Saint-Honoré has a payroll of some $5.4 million and sales of $30 million. It is involved in forest management, logging, and production of seedlings, as well as sawmill and planing operations.

I would also like to mention the important place that co-operatives have in the economy of aboriginal communities. By 1995 there were 76 aboriginal co-operatives in Canada. They are especially strong in the Northwest Territories and northern Quebec. In fact these co-operatives have more than 20,000 members.

Co-operatives are big business for the rural economy and in communities far from urban centres without losing sight of the community values that led to their creation in the first place. They are big businesses that pursue the interest of their members as a whole. They are big businesses that have shown Canadians another way to operate in a market economy.

The future of co-operatives in Canada is integral to the future of the economy in rural and remote areas. The bill before us gives these organizations the tools they need to keep on contributing to the economic growth of Canada.

The co-operative movement has a long and distinguished history of helping people in smaller communities. It goes back 150 years to when the first modern co-op was formed by the weavers of the village of Rochdale in Britain. By the turn of the century there were thousands of co-operatives throughout Europe and a growing co-op movement in Canada. The movement gained momentum with the birth of the prairie wheat pools at the beginning of this century.

But the economy is evolving, and the tools available to co-operatives must evolve in turn. The Canadian Co-operative Association and the Conseil canadien de la co-opération submitted the model legislation, which includes the amendments they would like to see incorporated in the draft bill. The Minister of Industry and the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food have examined it carefully and have circulated a working document containing their analysis.

In the best tradition of the co-operative movement this bill comes from the people. It is not a top down statute designed by government departments to remedy perceived problems. It is a bill created by the very people who know best what they need to maintain a healthy and vibrant co-op movement for the future.

I emphasize that the bill is entirely in keeping with the government's own stated aims and objectives. I see the bill as a key element in the government's commitment to strengthen the rural economy. It is a commitment we made in the Speech from the Throne when the government made the economic renewal of rural Canada a priority for this session of Parliament.

The government said it would address the problems facing rural Canadians in a way that is tailored to their needs.

The bill gives them these tools. I urge the House to pass it.

[Pierre De Savoye, Bloc, Portneuf, QC]

Mr. Speaker, everyone is interested in co-operatives. I have a particular interest in them, since there are agricultural co-operatives in my riding. Naturally, many of my constituents are members of caisses populaires, and even the weekly newspaper in my riding belongs to a co-operative with several hundred members. This weekly owns the riding's radio station, CKNU FM, at 100.9, which broadcasts news about the Portneuf area from Quebec City to Trois-Rivières.

So you will understand that, when the topic of co-operatives comes up, I am not just interested but very much involved because it is a topic of importance not just in my region but in Quebec and, as I can see, in Canada as well.

As other speakers for the Bloc Quebecois mentioned earlier, we are going to support this bill in principle. There are certain provisions that worry us, however, and I would like to ask our hon. colleague on the government side why, in the case of housing co-operatives, for example, the procedures for dissolution are different from those of other co-operatives.

What is the reason for these differences? Could she clarify this for us? I await her reply.

[Susan Whelan, Liberal, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.

Co-operatives are associations of individuals who work together, volunteer and pool their resources. There are many differences among the different types of co-ops. As I said earlier co-ops are found in fishing, agriculture, housing and community development initiatives. They all have slight differences.

I believe the hon. member is aware there are differences for co-ops because they serve different purposes.

[Keith Martin, Reform, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member made a very eloquent speech on co-operatives.

I am very interested in her views on something happening today that will have a negative effect on the ability of Canadians to create jobs: the CPP premium hike that will take place by the beginning of next year. This hike will almost double the premiums on CPP payments Canadians from coast to coast will have to pay. It will double the premiums of those who are independently employed and employable.

This increase at a time of pending surplus budgets will have a massive crushing effect on the ability of the primary driver—

[Walt Lastewka, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. A number of discussions this afternoon have gone totally away from the subject at hand, Bill C-5 and co-operatives.

I ask for your direction, Mr. Speaker. I think it would be good in debate if we stuck to the topic of Bill C-5 and co-operatives rather than go all the way around the world to all those other things that have absolutely no relevancy to co-operatives and associations that worked so hard with the government to get the legislation to where it is today. I ask for your assistance.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The hon. member is quite correct. We have to keep the debate relevant.

I was interested in trying to figure out, as were other members, how the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca would weave his comments into a question.

I give the remaining time to the hon. member for Essex.

[Susan Whelan, Liberal, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Department of Finance officials have been consulted on Bill C-5. They have indicated that there are no foreseeable tax implications for co-operatives under the bill.

I am not sure why the hon. member would go off on another issue, but there are no tax implications in the bill.

[Charlie Power, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Speaker, it is a real honour to represent the people of St. John's West. This is my first speech in the House, after having asked a couple of questions.

Although having represented a riding called Ferryland, part of St. John's West, in the Newfoundland legislature for about 17 years I am pretty reluctant to call my first speech a maiden speech.

I thank the people from the constituency of St. John's West for giving me this tremendous honour. It is a real honour for anyone to come here and serve the people of Canada. I am very grateful for that.

I would be a little remiss if I did not also thank the wonderful team I had who helped me put together my campaign which was very successful in getting me to the House of Commons.

Tomorrow I will be making a real speech about some Newfoundland issues. Just so that people understand, one of the duties of parliamentarians besides representing their own constituents is to be a critic of certain industries and certain portfolios in government. My critic responsibility is industry where the co-operative legislation lies. Thus today I will debate the bill on co-operatives.

Bill C-5 is a good piece of legislation. It will be supported by all colleagues in the Conservative caucus. It is a piece of legislation that has evolved after much discussion with many of the principals and parties involved, many levels of government, and the associations of co-operatives both in Quebec and in the rest of Canada.

It is not very often that we will see such a large degree of co-operation in the House of Commons. Co-operatives involve people organizing around a common goal, usually not for profit but rather for the economic benefit of their members.

I might point out in my first chance to speak in the House of Commons the purpose of Canada in the beginning: a group of people organizing together for common goals where everybody works for the good of everyone else.

In the short period of time I have been here I have seen that some of us have forgotten that principle of Canada, the principle of co-operation, the principle of a co-operative, the idea we should work together.

We are now all broken down into the regions of Canada and each region seems to lose some of its empathy and compatibility with the rest of Canada. That is most unfortunate and something that simply should not be allowed to continue in the House.

Co-operatives come from the grassroots movement. As such ordinary people are trying to make their ordinary lives a little better by organizing in certain elements which we now call co-operatives.

Co-operatives are also in many ways leaders in our community in environmental issues. They think the economies they are involved with must be sustainable and must not do any damage to the environment. As such I want to commend many of the co-operatives in this country for taking a very progressive leadership role on the environment.

Many co-operatives—I presume all co-operatives—are committed to Canadian economic prosperity. They do this through links with other international co-operative associations and in doing so they are able to participate in worldwide trade and many marketing ventures.

In doing research on Bill C-5 I found the role which co-operatives have played in Canada to be absolutely amazing. It started back in the 1800s with the Mutual Farm Insurance Company. By the late 1800s farmers wanted to have the same security in producing and marketing their products as successful large businesses. The farmers decided it was in their best interests to band together to gain better control over the marketing of their products and purchases. Today agricultural co-operatives play a major role in the Canadian economy.

I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Brandon—Souris, who will elaborate on and emphasize the importance of agricultural co-operatives.

Agricultural co-ops supply 36% of fertilizer and chemical sales. They have over 221,000 members and employ 18,000 people full time. That is something which I, coming from Newfoundland, would not have understood if I was not the critic responsible for debating Bill C-5.

There are also many fishery and forestry co-operatives. I was involved with a fishery co-operative in the small town of Petty Harbour, Newfoundland, where fishermen had real difficulty in marketing and selling their product. They formed their own co-operative. Although they ran into the same difficulties which all of the Newfoundland fishing companies ran into, they certainly showed that if people in small communities want to pool their resources and work together then success stories can evolve.

There are many consumer co-operatives in Canada. In 1995 there were 582 consumer co-operatives, with almost three million members. In 1995 there were also 28 health care co-operatives that generated $268.3 million in revenue and had over 316,000 members.

There are child care co-operatives that involve either day care or nursery school services. In 1995 there were 437 day care and nursery school co-ops in Canada. Where would all those children receive their day care and nursery schooling if these co-ops were not in place?

Co-operatives in many areas play a very major role in our economy.

There are also housing co-operatives. The number of housing co-operatives has been on the rise since the mid-1970s. In 1995 there were 1,946 housing co-ops across the country, with over 107,000 members. When I was campaigning in St. John's West I encountered people who were members of a housing co-op. They were very upset that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the agency which had funded their co-op, seemed to have classed them in with social housing, which is a different kind of housing, and was becoming reluctant to get further involved in co-op housing.

I talked to the participants of the project which I visited that day. They are very soundly proud of having co-op housing, which was funded through the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

There are workers co-operatives, which reflects the need for people to have more control over their own employment. In 1995 there were 225 of these co-operatives, with about 14,000 members.

Essentially, there are more than 7,000 non-financial co-operatives operating in Canada, with over 4.5 million members. Therefore it is important that we examine Bill C-5 to see exactly what it means because it affects so many Canadians in so many different ways.

Our role in the House is to do what we are doing today. Although I said that Bill C-5 is an excellent bill, and there has been a lot of discussion, there are still small parts of it which we want to discuss. I am sure we can do that in committee at a future time.

While the principle of a co-operative is to function outside a market economy, it must nonetheless respond to the same pressures and logic of that market. Therefore competition compels co-operatives to adopt the operating style and environment of the market oriented firms which dominate our economy. This point has fueled the necessity for change in this legislative environment.

It is also why the proposed changes in Bill C-5 mirror some of the existing rights for businesses which are granted under the Canada Business Corporations Act. Thus it is called enabling legislation. Powers are expanded and existing rules are clarified, but no co-operative is forced to change the way it currently operates.

While the provinces have been updating their co-operative legislation over the years, there have been no changes to modernize the framework of the federal legislation since its inception.

The proposals put forward by all of the co-operative associations, both in Quebec and in Canada, were based on consultations with both memberships. As previously mentioned, the most notable feature was that the changes would more closely align the Canada Co-operatives Association Act with the Canada Business Corporation Act.

It is time to get these changes moving forward, adding more flexibility, more competitiveness and the principle of using surplus funds to allow members to access additional funds for expansion. Finally the principle of education is also emphasized.

There is also an important principle in this bill which reduces ministerial authority, which is always good in legislation.

I would like to point out that Bill C-5 is not a controversial bill. Agreement between all parties was slow. It took over five years to develop. I believe a reasonable compromise was reached. Overall this bill is a positive step in bringing co-operatives into the 21st century by making them more flexible, more efficient and more competitive.

The changes in Bill C-5 are wide scale adjustments but I am confident the overall co-op membership of some 4.5 million Canadians will benefit greatly.

[Walt Lastewka, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I want to take the opportunity to congratulate the member for St. John's West on his maiden speech. As he said, he has had much practice before, but I would like to welcome him to this House.

I also want to welcome him to the industry committee. Although his title might be industry critic, I know that there are many items that we can work on in co-operation. I would also like to thank him for sticking to the topic of Bill C-5 and co-operatives, like the Bloc and the NDP but unlike the official opposition who went off topic.

It is important when we are talking about a bill like Bill C-5 that we do stick to the topic and put our best foot forward at all times.

As parliamentary secretary I would like to ask the member whether he has had a chance to discuss with the co-operatives in his area and surrounding areas the improvements that have been suggested in Bill C-5 and how will it benefit his area?

[Charlie Power, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his question.

Obviously in Newfoundland we do not have the same degree of co-operatives as there are in western Canada. We do have several very successful fishing co-ops, one being Fogo Island co-op which has been in existence for many years and has been a model for many of the smaller co-ops in Newfoundland and Labrador.

We have the Newfoundland Teachers Credit Union of which I was a member for many of my earlier years when I was teaching. It is a very successful credit union and it gives excellent services to the people of St. John's West and to Newfoundland and Labrador.

One of the things we might have missed in Newfoundland was a greater degree of co-operation and the co-operatives which could have resulted from that. I mentioned the Petty Harbour co-op. The community was catching lots of fish in the early 80s, but had no means to sell that fish, no means to process it. Through the leadership of people like Mike Hearn and Tom Best in that community they ran a pretty successful co-op for a period of time, but then ran into fishery problems.

Co-operatives in Newfoundland could play a much greater role. One of the greatest problems we have in Newfoundland is finding access to capital for small business. The Canadian banking establishment does not aggressively get involved in the Newfoundland business community. Maybe co-operatives could play an active role there as well. I hope to see it grow over the years.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I also support this bill.

I want to say to the hon. member that back in Saint John, New Brunswick we have a lot of co-operative housing. Under CMHC it has been very successful. I hope that members of the government will take a look at that program. My understanding is that CMHC is cutting back on the program and cutting out co-op housing. We have over 700 families looking for housing.

I ask the hon. member if he will do some work for us on that because he has stated there is a need. We see the need as well.

[Charlie Power, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I would be delighted to check with Canada Mortgage and Housing officials to see exactly where their program now stands. I know that during the election campaign in St. John's West it was of great concern to some persons who were in co-op housing.

I say to members opposite that it is an excellent program. It probably does not really cost the Government of Canada any money because the money gets repaid. I just hope it continues to put some emphasis on those types of programs.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your recognizing me to speak as my colleague has shared his time. I have 10 minutes, although I would like to hear the hon. member from across the way. I am sure I can stay in the House and hear his words of wisdom.

I hope my colleague will not ask as many questions of me as she did of my colleague from St. John's West.

When I was first elected, not that many months ago, I said that when good legislation was put forward by the government I would make sure that I congratulated them and that I would speak positively on positive legislation. Coming from Manitoba and western Canada, the birth place of co-operatives, I stand today to say that this legislation is very positive.

Wherever I walk in my community or in my constituency I constantly see examples of co-operatives, whether they are agricultural co-operatives, housing co-operatives or a media co-op which has been developed within the constituency of Brandon—Souris. Being the birth place of co-ops, I appreciate that legislation from the 1970s is being updated to the 1990s and into the 21st century so that co-operatives can compete in a very competitive age that we have currently with the private sector.

I should also say that I will not stray, as has been mentioned earlier. I am not prepared to stand up here and talk about issues such as Stornoway or hypocrisy or things of that nature. I would like to speak to the very positive nature of the legislation put forward, as did my colleague from St. John's West.

As we all recognize, co-operatives really are the grassroots of industry and commerce. It started in western Canada in the late 1880s and in fact was put forward because individuals wanted to work together. They wanted to, as the name suggests, co-operate with one another, put their resources, assets and abilities together so that they could, in a non-profit way, make sure that they had opportunities to compete with the private sector.

By the late 1800s, the farmers were the ones who wished to make sure that they took up this opportunity in agriculture. In the FP-500 ranking in 1995, the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool does $2.7 billion worth of business in western Canada. The Alberta Wheat Pool does $1.5 billion worth of business. The Manitoba Pool Elevators does $744 million. These are 1995 figures. I can assure members that the numbers are much larger in 1997 numbers, to the point where the Manitoba Pool Elevators have shown a record profit. When I use the term profit, it is profit that goes back to the owners of that particular co-operative which in fact are the members of that co-operative.

I can also say that we have, by example, in western Canada one of the co-operatives that is vying constantly for first place with that of the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool and that is the Federated Co-operatives. They are a wholesaler. They make sure that they supply retail to these other co-operatives and are extremely successful.

We also have co-operatives, as my hon. colleague has said, in the Atlantic provinces. They have the Co-op Atlantic. I have to say that simply because I sit beside the hon. member for Saint John.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

You had better believe it or you won't be able to sit at all.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

The principles of the 1970 Canada—

[An hon. member]

That wouldn't be a bad idea, Elsie.