Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to this motion today and the amendment, particularly, brought in by the leader of the Reform Party earlier this day.
I would like to comment a bit about the process that we are now entering into. It is interesting for me to listen to the party that has made quite a truck and trade with the referendum issue now not only endorsing the referendum idea but also pointing out the cautions and care that must be taken when one uses referendums.
Often during campaigns and when the blood is running fairly hot and furious, people will say that the Reform Party wants a referendum every other Thursday. It wants to decide everything under the sun by referendum. That of course has never been the role or the proposed role that the Reform Party has had in mind when we talked about the use of referendums. We have always said that referendum is the best and most exact way to go to the people for their input on legislation and in order to let them have a direct say in a direct democracy way.
However, that does not mean that we can run roughshod over minority rights. That does not mean that it should be a sloppy question. It does not mean that governments should use their considerable power and ability to spend money to try to stack the vote, to get the vote out or to do all kinds of unusual things, last minute changes and amendments. All those things have been brought up on this side of the House today as precautions, things that when one uses referendums one has to be careful with. It is not something where we want someone with a sparkle in their eye and a good glib line to come out and just say maybe we can swing the country over this way and do something outrageous. That was never the intent.
I hope that people are paying attention to the fact that referendums, properly used, are a very good indicator of the people's will. However, the key is the proper use, the judicious use of the question itself and the whole thing that surrounds it. That is why we have these particular amendments that we are dealing with today. That is why we say that this should not go forward unless it has proven the test of the democratic consent. In other words, was the question fair? Was adequate notice given? Were both sides or all sides taken into account when the question was put?
The reason we say that and want this in the motion is because we were assured by the Newfoundland government that this was all done during the first referendum. Yet there were some problems. People said it was not that clear. It was not all that it should have been. Maybe it did not pass the rule of law.
That is why we have put these three amendments today. We want to make sure the democratic consent has been properly handled. We do not want a rubber stamp that says send it to the House and it will do as we say. Let us examine the whole thing. That is why it is in this motion. By all means send it to committee and let us examine it. We do not reject it outright, but we want to examine it in its entirety.
We also want to make sure that the rule of law has been followed. The rule of law protects minority rights from the sort of thing I have been talking about. It makes sure that somebody through with a good line and a promise to save you a dollar does not run roughshod over the rights of others. “Just vote for this and I can guarantee it”. It gets passed quickly and people come back later and say “My goodness, which rights did we trample on? What have we done here?”
Once that amendment is made we have something that is very difficult to change, as it should be. We want to make sure that if it is changed it passes the rule of law. That is why we want and would have preferred to have had the Newfoundland government refer this to the supreme court for a ruling before it proceeded. It should determine if it prejudicially affects the interests of minorities, not just an opinion of a legal firm. We would have liked to have had the court say “Yes, we have examined this and the rule of law has been carefully guarded with regard to minority rights”.
We are not convinced that a Senate-House of Commons committee is the best place to hear this. Increasingly the government has tended to use the Senate to introduce bills. Four or five bills have been introduced in the Senate. We are quite annoyed that the Senate is hearing bills which should properly come through this place, the place of the common people.
A motion like this that gives added legitimacy to the Senate, when its legitimacy is probably at an all-time low, is a mistake. That is why in the amendment we suggest that it should be placed here before the people in this common house in order to discuss the issues of the common people. It should not be sent to the house of lords where they have an appointment for life and a pension to boot. We find that offensive.
The true democratic act is to put it before the people who are accountable to their constituents. The people who are accountable are the members of this House. They are not in the other place where the only accountability is to the party which sent you there. That is not accountability. That is a parking spot. This is why we would rather have this changed to bring it before the House for resolution.
We would also like to see a free vote on this. It was mentioned by an hon. member opposite that it passed the Newfoundland legislature unanimously. That is encouraging. I am sure the committee will take that into account. I can guarantee that it will not be unanimous in this place. Members of all parties will carefully weigh this before they vote yea or nay for a variety of reasons, some of which have been brought out by the member from Delta—South Richmond and others who have pointed out flaws in the system.
The very least we should be entitled to on an issue of this magnitude is a free vote. We cannot be all powerful and all knowing. We are not the great and wonderful Oz. We are people who bring different points of view to the discussion. We have had different discussions with people from Newfoundland and other groups that are concerned. We should be encouraged to have a free vote on all sides of the House so that we can get a true perspective of our constituents' feelings, if they have strong feelings, as well as those of the people of Newfoundland.
I hope people understand a little better from the debate today what a referendum process should look like. There are various foibles or landmines, as it were, which can happen during the referendum process.
A referendum does not solve all problems. It is part of a process of several steps in gaining democratic consent, looking after the national interest, protecting the rights of minorities and protecting the rule of law. This amendment is supposed to do all of those things. I believe it will do it very well.
I encourage all members, in a free vote, to support the amendment, move on to the main motion and send this off to committee where we can do a better job, not only here, but as the amendment indicates, we will be able to travel to the province of Newfoundland to deal with it there, with the people who are most affected. Let us not just talk about it here, let us go to the people who will be affected by this and hold public hearings to get their input.