Debates of Oct. 6th, 1997

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board Act

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to welcome the new member for Madawaska—Restigouche to the debate.

I feel that having been here in the previous Parliament I should clarify some of the misconceptions which he expressed in his speech.

He mentioned that there were no consultations on the CPP changes. That is simply not true. Members will know that the CPP is a joint program of the federal and provincial governments and the law requires that both agree. Last spring a member of the government led consultations in every major city across the country. Not only was he present but other members from the government side were present and their counterparts of the provincial governments came to hear the witnesses with them. Those witnesses included representatives of most seniors groups, and even some young people came to make their views known. Consultations were held.

I am glad that the member agrees that there is a need for reform. I feel that it is too bad that other members of his party when they had the chance to bring these reforms about 10 years ago did not see the light as he has. He complains that we only brought forward the reforms in 1997 when they were due in 1996. There was an opportunity in 1986 to begin these changes which would have meant less dramatic changes had it been done then.

I wonder if the member agrees that perhaps his party when it was in power should have moved then in order to lessen the burden today.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her comments. I heard about the consultation in major cities, but not all cities were affected by the consultation.

The people of my riding in northern New Brunswick did not hear about the consultations. All Canadians have a right to be consulted if it is going to affect their wallets.

The hon. member says that consultations have been ongoing since 1996. If that is so, why are seniors throughout Canada very nervous about the changes being made to the CPP?

We saw the effect which changes to the EI had on the citizens of Atlantic Canada. We want to ensure that does not happen again.

[Jim Jones, Progressive Conservative, Markham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the amendments proposed in Bill C-2 are simply not acceptable to the party to which I belong. However, I agree that we have to decide on a course of action quickly. We should not prolong or delay the deliberation of this bill.

I am also sure that many Canadians will agree that the proposed changes will harm their retirement years. I would like to address three main points which arise from the legislation.

CPP premiums will rise at a faster rate than originally planned. Taxpayer disposable income will be negatively affected as their budgets will need to be altered once again. Changes in the way benefits are calculated will slightly reduce the pensions of future beneficiaries, reduce health benefits and make it harder to qualify for disabled benefits. This means that present contributors will be forced to pay more while being told they will receive less.

Bill C-2 sends out messages to three groups. First and perhaps most relevant are the working Canadians who over the next 20 years will pay out more in CPP premiums and in the end receive less in benefits. Even if current forecasts are incorrect, the previous pay as you go system which had today's workers paying for today's pensioners will be overhauled to become a fuller funding system, where today's workers will pay for today's and tomorrow's pensioners and will have nothing for themselves. It used to be a privilege for Canadian citizens to receive the CPP. Now it has become a burden for working Canadians as they must pay more and more as premiums increase.

Second, the proposed changes in the legislation will force working Canadians to rely more heavily on workplace pensions and RRSPs. Higher CPP premiums imposed on Canadians leave less disposable income for individuals to manage their own private retirement portfolios.

The fact that benefits received will be based on the average of the past five years' earnings instead of three means that for most recipients pensions will be 3.7 percent lower than in the present system. Therefore the need for private pension plans is even more relevant.

Third, I am concerned for the self-employed worker who will consequently be hit hardest by the changes proposed in Bill C-2.

We know that small businesses in Canada are stressed with payroll deductions, but now they must face yet another hike in expenses.

Those who are self-employed will be excessively strained for cash as they must contribute 100 percent of the proposed increases. The self-employed individual must contribute both his or her portion plus the employer's contribution, who in this case is one and the same. This means that by the year 2003 an additional $3,270 must come out of the pockets of small business owners based on the proposed figures.

What financial incentives do we offer Canadians who are self-employed or who are considering self-employment? I would argue none. This is a time when the self-employed are driving the economy, creating jobs and growing rapidly. Self-employed individuals should be offered greater tax assistance on what normally would be the employer's share of the CPP contribution.

Changes to CPP benefits should not only impact on future generations but also on individuals currently collecting the Canada pension plan as well as those nearing pension eligibility.

Working Canadians and future generations will be hard hit by both reduced benefits and increased contribution rates. It is imperative that the government strive for fairness with the pension system. This means that changes must be applied fairly to all Canadians. Higher contributions mean less disposable income, disposable income that could be used to save smartly for retirement.

Women will be hit hard by the proposed amendments. It is a fact that not only do more men than women have workplace pensions, they also have more in those pensions. Most women have very little disposable income to invest in RRSPs. Economists have found that a small percentage of men and women will be financially secure upon retirement.

Canadians are in need of legislation that secures future needs but will not rob them of their independence to manage their present and future plans. Premium increases place greater burden on the working poor than on wealthy Canadians. This is not a fair deal for Canadians as current recipients will not be affected but future benefits will be lower for Canadians taking into consideration inflation.

Our youth are another group that will be affected by the proposed legislation put forth by the government. As I have alluded to, the cost of this fund will not be shared equally among the generations. The burden of this tax grab will fall most heavily on young Canadians just entering the job market. Taking into account inflation and any possible changes in policies, today's young Canadians are faced with small or even negative real returns on their retirement investment under the Canada pension plan.

One must consider the following points with respect to the proposed amendments. Canada pension plan premiums will rise at a faster rate than originally planned. Changes in the way benefits are calculated will slightly reduce the pensions of future beneficiaries, reduce the death benefit and make it harder to qualify for disabled benefits. The plan no longer will lend funds to the provinces at preferred rates. Those proposed changes offer nothing to make the Canada pension plan self-financing. They do nothing to offer CPP premiums with tax cuts and do not encourage greater RRSP savings.

Canadians realize that it is imperative for them to begin planning for retirement in advance. More and more we see that Canadians are striving to ensure stronger financial security in retirement via retirement savings plans. However, it is becoming extremely difficult due to the rules governing RRSPs which are preventing Canadians from getting maximum potential returns on investment.

Restrictions on foreign content hinder diversification in a host of investment opportunities required to minimize financial risk. Our current government has twice reduced the annual contribution limits and is moving even closer to taxing RRSP savings. This is unacceptable to Canadians.

The current foreign content limit of 20 percent reduces Canadian pension earnings by about $700 million per year. If this rule is removed the market value of CPP could potentially increase by 20 percent to 25 percent. The side effect of a foreign content rule reduces the competitiveness of Canadian companies as they have less incentive to be efficient.

The proposed amendments to Bill C-2 raise questions as to the amount of money the current government can pull from the pockets of the middle class when at the same time it is cutting future retirement benefits. The Liberals have no overall plan for the retirement of Canadians. Honest working Canadians pay more today, receive less later and have less disposable income to do responsible planning for their retirement years.

We must not rush into a plan without clearly knowing what the long term repercussions are. The Canada pension plan must be fair and equitable to all Canadians.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have one question for the hon. member with regard to the speech made earlier today by the leader of the Conservative Party. He would increase the pension plan and contributions to the plan but at the same time he must give tax breaks in other forms.

Will the Conservative Party, of which 13 members are from Atlantic Canada, help us, the New Democratic Party, in pushing the government for a reduction of the HST? The Liberals thought we were not bad enough off with the GST so they threw the HST on us as well. Will they assist us to get a reduction in the HST to help the pensioners and those with low incomes in Atlantic Canada?

[Jim Jones, Progressive Conservative, Markham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I know that we will help reduce the premiums for EI payments. The HST which is the harmonized sales tax and the GST are performing a function which replaces the manufacturing tax. I would like to see as we get to a balanced budget the revenues from the HST used to reduce the debt. That is what I thought it was initially set up for. In the long run by reducing the debt and the debt servicing costs we can reduce taxes for all Canadians. That is what we must strive for.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I heard the comment of the leader of the Conservative Party that any increase in the rates of the Canada pension plan system would have to be offset by tax breaks. The leader of the Conservative Party did not articulate exactly what taxes he was talking about and how much. It is an important question which has been raised.

If we consider that the Canada pension plan premiums are contributed by those who are working, that is a defined set of people. We should then also look at who is affected by tax breaks. For example if there was a tax break on personal income taxes, there are people who do not work but have a lot of income because of investment income or other sources which are not insurable earnings. There are retirees as well who are paying on their corporate pension plan entitlements, CPP et cetera. Tax breaks would apply to a different set of people than those who are paying the rates.

Could the member clearly explain to the House how we can match tax breaks specifically to cover the rate increases without creating a significant charge against expenditures or increase the deficit?

[Jim Jones, Progressive Conservative, Markham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the Canada pension plan is a payroll tax and so is the EI premium. What we are saying is that for a tax reduction, taking the $5 billion surplus of the EI and offsetting it against the deficit should stop now. As we get into the balanced budget benefit that is supposed to be forthcoming, that should be done on its own. To create jobs maybe we should reduce the premium on the EI and offset it against the Canada pension fund which workers and organizations will have to pay. Both are payroll taxes.

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, this is my first time speaking on a bill in the House since the election.

I would like to thank the people in Kent—Essex for their support and I look forward to working on their behalf in the House over the next few years.

I would also like to congratulate you on your appointment as acting speaker. It does bring a great deal of honour to the House to have people like you who have worked in Parliament and have done a great job in the past. I congratulate you for your efforts.

I appreciate having the honour to speak on this legislation and I support it. The Canada pension plan is one of the defining features of Canada. In the last 30 years since the plan was introduced, by a Liberal government I might add, we have certainly used it as a cornerstone for our social policy. It certainly is the key to the retirement policies and plans of all Canadians.

In the last few years however concerns have been expressed about the viability of the Canada pension plan. A recent article in Maclean's magazine for example indicated that about two-thirds of Canadians do not believe that it would be sustainable as it presently stands. Canadians are concerned and as members of Parliament it is our responsibility to take the necessary steps to re-establish confidence in the public part of society and make sure that the vital parts of this social union are carried on with stable and secure programs for the future.

In order to meet the responsibility, our government has heeded the concerns of the plan's chief actuary that the unbalanced relationship between contributions and payouts is in jeopardy and the long term sustainability of the plan must be addressed. “Changes are needed”, he said, “if we want to ensure the Canada pension plan's ability to meet the income security needs of Canadians”.

Expert analysis has shown us that the rules of our plan need to be updated to reflect the realities of today's world as well as tomorrow's. We are not only fixing today's problem. We are putting in place a plan for the future. We cannot continue to operate as though we are living in an economic and demographic situation that existed some 30 years ago when the plan was first introduced. We need to meet today's economic and demographic demands.

As a government we accept the responsibility of securing the future of the Canada pension plan. We are not afraid to take the challenges of responsibility. We took the challenge of dealing aggressively with the deficit and we met it. We took the challenge of government program review, the challenge of getting government right, and we met it. Now we are taking the challenge of securing the future of the Canada pension plan.

The amendments to the Canada pension plan contained in this bill will enable us to meet that challenge. With the support of this House, we will meet our responsibility to Canadians to make sure that the Canada pension plan will be here for them when they need it.

I want to emphasize that we have not developed these proposed changes in isolation. These amendments are the result of a long and wide ranging process of consultation that began in our last term of office. This process of consultation included talks with the provincial governments, our counterparts, territorial governments, actuarial and insurance professionals, representatives of social planning organizations, seniors, youth, persons with disabilities and a large number of others who had something they could bring to the discussion.

In short, we have consulted broadly with Canadians on the future of the Canadian pension plan and on the need for change. One of the clearest messages that we received during the consultations is that Canadians want and need the Canada pension plan. We were told in no uncertain terms to keep the CPP. Change it if necessary but keep it. So that our objective is met to keep the CPP but also to make the changes necessary to make it sustainable, the plan now before us and in the future is here.

The plan's chief actuary has told us that if we do not rebalance the relationship between contributions on one side and payouts on the other, the fund will not last beyond the year 2015. Put simply, current contribution rates are not sufficient to sustain the current benefit payouts now or in the future. Let me express that again. Current contribution rates are not sufficient to sustain the benefits and payouts now or in the future.

To keep the current benefit structure, the chief actuary has told us that we will need to increase contributions to 14 percent of income by the year 2030. Fourteen percent of one's income is too high and we know that. Once more, Canadians are unwilling to pay 14 percent. Therefore to have rebalance in a relationship between what Canadians can reasonably expect to pay and the plan contributions, we must plan reasonably the form that this benefit is taking.

A member across the way asks when did we realize this. It is very clear. When we came to government three and a half years ago, we realized there was a problem and so we did these consultations. We have been working on this issue. We have been doing the things necessary while the other government previous to ours left it. It did not have the nerve to straighten things out and correct things. Quite clearly we have done a great deal of consultation and we are moving forward.

That rebalanced relationship is very important to where these benefits are going and what is happening. As it is, Bill C-2 addresses this by proposing marginal increases in contribution rates to be phased in over a period of seven years. In this way contributions will increase by .4 percent this coming year or about $24 and will go up to 9.9 percent of income by the year 2003. This is compared to the current rate of 5.85 percent.

Some of my colleagues opposite have described this increase as a tax grab. I want to be very clear on the record that this is not a tax issue. CPP contributions are not a tax. They are contributions toward pensions. I guess they do not understand pension contributions but that is what they are.

The premium payments will not go into the government's general revenue. They will not be used in any form other than CPP. In fact the bill states that the savings will become part of a separate investment fund to be managed and invested on behalf of the plan by an independent body. CPP contributions represent an interested investment by Canadians in their own future. It is not a tax.

Contributing to CPP is not paying tax. It is planning prudently for the future of Canadians. CPP contributions are like insurance premiums. They are invested to provide for future needs. Contributions to company pension plans are not taxes. They are deductible in a similar way that CPP contributions are tax deductible investments in the future. I think it is important that Canadians understand that.

Having cleared up one of the mistaken impressions, I would like to turn now to clearing up another. That is the mistaken impression that the benefits under the revised plan are going to be cut drastically. Anyone who studies the bill will realize that the changes being proposed to the benefits are modest. In many cases benefit payouts would not change at all.

For example CPP retirement pension disability benefits, survivor benefits or combined benefits currently paid are not affected by these amendments. Also anyone over 65 as of December 31, 1997 who elects to start receiving a CPP retirement pension after that date will not see the pension affected. All benefits under the CPP, except the death benefit, would remain fully indexed to inflation.

The ages of eligibility for retirement, early, normal or late, would be unchanged. Canadians would continue to be eligible for early retirement starting at age 60, normal retirement age would be age 65 and late retirement eligibility would continue up to age 70. There would be no impact on the child benefits either for current beneficiaries or future ones.

These basic features of the CPP would remain the same but there are some changes that are being proposed by the legislation. We cannot bring the program back into balance without making some adjustments.

During our consultations we were told that we should go easy on making the changes. Canadians recognize the need for adjustments but they did not want to see a drastic change. We listened to the advice and have given some thought to all of the approaches we could take to balance the system. We believe we will accommodate that concern through this bill.

At the same time we recognize the proposed changes should not impact unduly on anyone or any group in society. Thus the impact of the changes will be shared among future retirees, future survivors of retirees and recipients of disability benefits.

As noted earlier, anyone currently in receipt of retirement pension under the CPP will not see that pension change. However, retirement pensions for future beneficiaries would change since the calculation would be based on five years of maximum pensionable earnings instead of the current three years.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but he will have approximately 10 minutes remaining when this debate commences again tomorrow.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved

[Gilles Bernier, Progressive Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Mr. Speaker, in a 1993 Liberal Party press release the prime minister described the decision to purchase much needed maritime helicopters as a colossal waste of taxpayers' money.

Since he made that statement his government has slashed health care transfers to the provinces by 35 percent. Simultaneously he spent over a billion dollars only to delay the necessary replacement of Canada's aging Sea King and Labrador helicopters.

Our health care system is viewed by many as the best in the world. It is one of the most important achievements in our history and a cornerstone of Canadian society. Preserving and improving health care are top priorities for Canadians and must be judged as important to every government.

Over the last three years the current government cut health care funding to every province and territory. It has hacked more than one-third out of health transfers to the provinces and territories.

In the last three budgets of the Minister of Finance these federal transfers were cut by more than $6 billion. This has put extra pressure on provincial governments, health care institutions, health care providers and, most of all, patients and their families.

As provincial and territorial governments struggle to absorb the federal spending cuts and community hospital cuts, many Canadians fear the health care system they has come to count on may not be there when they need it.

That begs a question. Has the government taken every measure necessary to secure funding for our health care system? Has the government spent taxpayers' money wisely and only cut health care transfers as a last resort? The answer unfortunately is no.

In 1993, in the heat of an election campaign, the prime minister made a hasty campaign promise to scrap the purchase of 43 maritime helicopters needed to replace the Department of National Defence aging Sea King and Labrador helicopters.

The decision to cancel this purchase was not made on sound judgment as part of an overall strategy for Canada's military. It was not a decision based on what is best for the value of taxpayers' money. It was made for purely partisan political reasons. The prime minister made the unwise decision but Canadians have been paying the price ever since.

Since the Liberal government took office there have been more than 511 emergency landings for the Sea Kings and 259 emergency landings for the Labrador.

The original deal on helicopters was not just a purchase but an opportunity for Canadians to co-develop proprietary technology for the EH-101. Canadians have lost forever the 10 percent job royalties guaranteed to them from all international sales of EH-101 helicopters.

The deal would have created 4,000 person years in new, high paid technology driven jobs. Instead the government must deal with the additional cost of lost jobs, closed companies and lost tax revenue.

Finally, after four years of delay, the government is poised to announce two new helicopter contracts to replace the Sea Kings and Labradors. The price of this delay, we now know, is more than a billion dollars to Canadian taxpayers in cancellation fees, additional maintenance costs and lost jobs and tax revenues. What did we get for $1 billion? Nothing, not a single helicopter.

Canadians believe and I believe the money should have gone into health care transfers. This is a time when government must make hard choices about how to use scarce health funds.

Was the obscene amount of money spent on keeping a poorly thought out campaign promise worth it? Absolutely not. That is money that could have benefited our health care system.

[John Richardson, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, the government understands that Canadians want their tax dollars well spent whether on health care or defence. The government is committed to ensuring that Canadians get the most value for their dollars. This means in part making sure that Canadians forces have the right equipment for the job.

The Canadian forces are often called upon to perform difficult and sometimes dangerous work. If they are to do what Canadians expect them to do, they must have the tools to do the job at a price we can afford.

Beyond the international commitments Canadians are well aware of and justifiably proud of, our forces first and foremost carry out a full slate of missions at home. Among the more important of them is the national search and rescue service.

Search and rescue is of paramount importance to thousands of Canadians from those who make their living in the remote regions of the country, be it at sea, on land or in the air, to the many Canadians who simply enjoy boating, camping, fishing and the great outdoors.

Over the last 50 years Canadian forces provided primary search and rescue helicopter services to Canadians. They have truly established a tradition of excellence and have saved many lives over the years. This success can be attributed directly to the unselfish effort of highly skilled and dedicated search and rescue personnel.

We can cite a few examples of the last couple of years to highlight their achievements. They have provided vital lifesaving, morale boosting and support during the devastating floods in the Saguenay and the Manitoba Red River Valley in July 1996 and the spring of 1997 respectively. These success stories are remarkable, particularly when we think of the unique challenges we face in Canada. Our geography comes immediately to mind, a huge land mass and one of the longest coastlines in the world.

The Canadian forces must be able to operate in extremely harsh conditions including the Arctic. They must be prepared to respond to emergencies anywhere in the nation.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to bring light to the crisis facing the east coast fishery.

My question last week to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans was for him to call a judicial inquiry into the past and current practices and policies of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. With all four opposition parties plus scientists and bureaucrats from within the departments, plus the Department of the Environment, not to mention thousands of fishers in Atlantic Canada and Quebec calling for the same inquiry, it appears to all of us that only the minister is opposed to calling an inquiry.

His position reminds me of a line I heard in a movie which indicates to me that he cannot handle the truth. Only an open judicial inquiry would allow scientists from within the department to state openly their concerns without fear of job retribution.

Only an inquiry will be able to find solutions to the crisis not only on the east coast but on the west coast as well. Our stocks of various species of fish are reaching dangerously low levels and without strong measures may never recover.

The minister of human resources announced the other day that he has hired an individual to look at the concerns facing the 40,000 fishers on our east coast as the income supplement known as TAGS runs out one year prematurely in May 1998.

I suspect that he did this to deflect certain criticism bound to come to the government from the upcoming attorney general's report. The report coming out this week is sure to be very critical of the government's handling of not only the TAGS program but the management, or should I say mismanagement, of the groundstock species.

A system such as the individual transfer quotas or ITQs have taken 50 percent of the total quotas away from individual fishers and moved them into the hands of a handful of corporations. As well, 20 percent of additional quotas are sold from individual fishers to the corporations. In truth the corporations control 70 percent of the total allowable catch.

With the modern high tech methods incorporated in today's fishing industries, tonnes of fish can now be caught indiscriminately within a matter of hours using no more than a couple of dozen fishers, where before fish were caught more selectively using hook and line methods, using the services of hundreds of fishers and smaller vessels.

The nets used by draggers on the huge trawlers sometimes break away from the ship, lying on the ocean floor, indiscriminately killing anything in their path, not to mention the trawler gear that rips up the ocean floor, destroying precious corral and reef habitats. Just last week two whales off the east coast were seen tangled up in nets.

Other examples of concern are the dumping of by-catches which is still ongoing. As well, the number of gun-toting fishing officers is ever increasing. It is also true that with the hundreds of different organizations involved in the fishing industry there are hundreds of different ideas of what should happen to cure the ills affecting the industry.

Today I ask all parties involved in the fishery on all three coasts to put aside their differences and work together to come up with a viable long term sustainable solution not only to bring back the stocks but to provide long term employment for as many Canadians as possible. I believe this process would be greatly enhanced by an inquiry.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, most of the points raised by the member opposite speak to the need of the government to provide good conservation and management of the fisheries. That is certainly what this minister of fisheries is doing.

With respect to the TAGS issue, first and foremost, the Atlantic groundfish strategy is under the purview of the Minister of Human Resources Development. The prime minister has recently appointed the minister of HRD as the lead on the post-TAGS issue. The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans will be working very closely with Minister of Human Resources Development providing fisheries advice to him and his officials on options as they are developed.

The government announced TAGS in April 1994 and promised $1.9 billion in income support and adjustment measures under the program. The government is living up to that commitment. Unfortunately, because of the larger than expected number of participants, TAGS will end in May 1998.

The government remains very concerned about the impacts of the end of TAGS on individuals and communities and last May promised a post-TAGS review.

Last Friday the Minister of HRD appointed a senior HRDC official to lead this review of the post-TAGS situation, starting immediately. Mr. Harrigan will be looking at the situation as it affects the five eastern provinces.

The review will focus on the impact of the end of TAGS program on clients and help the government and our other partners develop forward looking solutions.

It is very important for us to reflect on the human dimensions of this crisis on individuals and communities. We look forward to working with all our partners, including industry and the province, to address the solution of Atlantic fishers.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the reason we are here today at what we like to call the question period late show is that we have been unable to get any straight answers from the government for a solid week on the matter of Canadian passports being used by Israeli agents in Jordan.

Every day we have stood and asked straightforward information-gathering questions of the prime minister, of the foreign affairs minister, of whomever the files seemed to be pawned off on that particular day. One day we even heard from the Secretary of State for Latin American and Africa, a mistake only remedied when the government finally realized that neither Israel nor Jordan are in Latin America or Africa.

Simply put, they have been evasive, sloppy and inaccurate. They have embarrassed our country at home and on the world stage in their handling of the matter. After more than a week our questions remain outstanding and unanswered. They have been asked in good faith on behalf of concerned Canadians both at home and abroad and deserve a reply.

We know that the issue is delicate, that Israel and Canada are strong allies economically, culturally, politically, and of course allies in the fight against international terrorism. Canadians believe in the State of Israel and its right to defend itself against attack.

Our concerns have centred on the fact that Canadian passports have been used to engage in covert operations. By using Canadian passports as part of their cover, Israeli agents have made Canadians unwitting players in a very dangerous game.

The Canadian passport like the maple leaf is a trusted symbol of our country. Our passport enjoys unparalleled respect the world over, undoubtedly a reason that the Mossad found it useful. Using Canadian passports may be good for counter-terrorist missions, but it unfortunately jeopardizes the reputation of our passport and of Canadians who travel abroad every year. That means it jeopardizes the safety of those Canadian travellers as well.

Over the past week the government has said that the passports were forgeries. Then it said they may have been forged or stolen. Then it said that Canadian officials had seen the passports, then that they had not seen the passports but other people had seen them. It goes on and on.

Surely this is such a sensitive issue that it deserves a clear answer as to what has actually happened. Surely after nearly two weeks of inquiries the government should know the truth.

Therefore I ask again, and solicit a straight answer from the government, will the government please explain to Canadians what exactly happened in Jordan and how it came to be that the Mossad was using Canadian passports as a cover?

[Ted McWhinney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. leader of the opposition, he will be aware, as the prime minister told the House, that it is absolutely unacceptable to the Government of Canada that anybody should be authorized by a foreign government to use Canadian passports to perpetrate an illegal act.

I want to tell the House that we have taken actions to protect the integrity of our passport, the safety of Canadians and to assure all concerned that Canada is not complicit in any way in this incident.

We have obtained the two forged passports used in Jordan.

The hon. member will be aware that we have recalled our ambassador to Israel for consultations. This is a very serious step in international law and diplomacy. It is intended to send the signal that we will not tolerate the fraudulent use of Canadian passports. We believe this message has been heard in Israel.

I can confirm to the hon. member that the Israeli minister of foreign affairs, David Levy, called the Minister of Foreign Affairs yesterday. Foreign minister Levy expressed his regret at what had transpired. He is clearly concerned regarding the implications for Canada's future relations with Israel.

I can also inform the hon. member that Mr. Levy indicated the Israeli government has undertaken to investigate the matter and clear up all questions which have arisen between Canada and Israel. He undertook to provide the results of the investigation to Canada.

The hon. member should be aware that Mr. Levy agreed to the request of the Minister of Foreign Affairs that further discussions take place to ensure that this does not happen again.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, before I came to the House I travelled extensively. I spent 30 years travelling around the world. I truly want to emphasize just how critical it is that the government preserve the integrity of the Canadian passport.

The Canadian passport is a ticket to freedom. It may be the most treasured passport in the entire world. Our passport is a key which opens the door for Canadians wherever they go.

That is exactly why the Canadian passport is so important for a man named Ron Ready. Ron is a Canadian who has been in Jordan for the past six months on important personal business. He does not want to come home until he has completed his task, but now he says that he may be forced to.

Things changed for the worse for Ron only a few hours after two individuals carrying what are now being called forged Canadian passports attacked a Hamas leader.

Ron says he was contacted in his hotel by the police and told that as a Canadian he should stay indoors because his safety might be threatened.

We have talked to Ron four or five times, almost every day, to find out how things have changed. Ron did contact foreign affairs, both over there and here in Ottawa. He called the prime minister's office for action. When he received no answers, he contacted the official opposition.

After communicating with Ron we were shocked to find that so little had been done to protect Canadians in Jordan and elsewhere in the Middle East. In fact, we can think of nothing that was done at all. Ron says that the only help he received was the same advice he got from the police: Stay inside.

Jordanian acquaintances told him there was talk of killing westerners. Meanwhile, he said, the embassy would not even pay for him to call the foreign affairs department in Canada. When Ron Ready really needed the foreign affairs department, foreign affairs was inept and unavailable for him.

At the very least, Ron thought the Canadian government should issue a travel advisory so that other Canadians would not wander into the situation, but foreign affairs refused to do it.

When an incident takes place anywhere in the world and Canadians are at risk I believe that the government should do what it can to help them. Instead of taking action the government stalled. Instead of thinking about how life would be for Canadians stuck in this situation, the government was only hoping that no one would ask the difficult questions that would embarrass it.

If the media and the official opposition did not push for answers I doubt the government would have told us about this situation at all. The government waited for days, hoping no questions would come. It did not even think for a moment about the implication and the threats this placed on Canadian passport holders travelling abroad.

We think the government owes it to Canadians to get an assurance from Israel that our passports will not be used in covert operations ever again. A Canadian passport is too important to be muddied doing the dirty work in undercover operations.

I ask the government what specific actions it will take to ensure this will not happen again.

[Ted McWhinney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I can assure the House that the government is very concerned about the safety of Canadians travelling abroad. We have taken significant action to protect the integrity of our passports and the safety of Canadians.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs at the United Nations last week had extensive consultations with Arab governments and the Arab language press to assure them that there was no complicity on the part of Canada in this incident. As a result, the Arab governments and the Arab people realize that Canada was not involved in the attack in Jordan and will not hold us responsible. This diplomatic effort was the most important step in ensuring the safety of Canadians travelling and living in the Middle East.

Travel reports on eight Middle Eastern countries: Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Yemen were updated on October 5 to inform the public of the recent incident in Jordan, to clarify Canada's non-complicity and to remind Canadians to be prudent and vigilant when travelling in the region.

As the prime minister told the House, it is unacceptable to the Government of Canada for anybody authorized by a foreign government to use Canadian passports to perpetrate an illegal act. The hon. member will be aware that we have recalled our ambassador to Israel for consultations. This is a very serious step in international law and diplomacy designed to send the signal that we will not tolerate the fraudulent use of Canadian passports. We do believe this message has been heard in Israel.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs has obtained a commitment from the Israeli foreign minister to set up a consultative process with us to ensure that we can have a common understanding to prevent misuse of Canadian passports in the future.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, again I would like to raise the same issue we have been talking about, the seriousness of the passport problem we have had.

It amazes me that the parliamentary secretary, although I appreciate the effort he is making, has written answers already to questions which he did not really know were coming. I am rather amazed by that. He was not sure what the questions were that were coming but he has full blown written prepared answers for them.

I have a question for him with which I want to preface some of my remarks. I trust he will throw away the prepared text and give me a real answer for a very real question. This is the whole idea of a question period which is a little fuller and called the late show. The comedy of errors that we have seen over the last few days here in this Chamber leads me to believe that David Letterman is really the guy who is in charge of foreign affairs over there because of the absurdity of some of things we have seen come forward.

The official opposition does understand the importance of supporting our allies in the fight against terrorism. We understand that, we know it and we support it. But as Canadian members of Parliament our first duty is to make sure of the safety of our citizens, which means protecting the good reputation of our passport everywhere in the world, every day of the week, every month of the year.

When we first raised this issue in the House just several days ago, the prime minister assured us that no Canadian agents were involved in this anti-terrorist mission or the illegal use of Canadian passports. That is an important thing for us to find out but of course there have been questions arising from that. After all if Canada does have a secret agreement with other countries to help fight terrorism that changes things.

Also, if Canadian agents were involved in this mission somehow then that puts this Jordan operation in a different light as well. We need to find those answers.

The very first time we put the question to the prime minister he said that Canadians had nothing to do with this mission. When the Leader of the Opposition asked whether or not Canada had been asked for permission by a foreign country to use our passports he said: “I have never been informed of any such request by any government”.

Today we find out that CSIS agents did indeed meet with the Mossad agents on the very eve of the mission. Surely in a meeting between Israeli and Canadian spy agencies on the eve of such a mission this issue might have come up in the conversation. Yet the prime minister told us in this House that it never came up.

My question for the parliamentary secretary is very simple. I trust that he is going to give us a straight answer here, not off prepared notes because he did not know what the question was. The question is simple and straightforward. There has been a flip-flop on the government side. First the prime minister said he had never been informed of any such request by any government and then we find out that the CSIS and the Israeli agents are talking to each other on the very eve of this mission.

Let me ask the parliamentary secretary how in the world can they expect us to believe that the subject of this major raid against Hamas did not even come up in their meeting?

[Ted McWhinney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I would advise the hon. member that I have been briefed on this matter for fully a week. The answers that I am giving reflect the knowledge of facts such as they are.

They have some personal interest to me as somebody who has advised numbers of governments on international terrorism and its control.

When we first became aware of this matter we were advised by the Jordanian government of the arrest of two persons carrying Canadian passports, and Canadian diplomatic consul officials in Jordan made contact with these people through the offices of the Jordanian government and offered the usual diplomatic consular help, the offer of legal assistance and the like. It was refused categorically at that stage.

I will stick to facts because we cannot get into hypothetical situations. We were shown the passports by Jordanian government officials in the early stages of the investigation. Our examination then indicated that the passports were forgeries.

I want to inform the hon. member that we have now obtained the two passports used in Jordan. We have submitted them to our own forensic examination and that has confirmed the initial evaluation that the passports are forgeries.

We have, from the facts as they are already known, indicated our concern to the Government of Israel and we have spoken loudly and clearly to the Government of Israel.

The hon. member will be aware that we have recalled our ambassador to Israel for consultations. It is not a formal step. It is a very serious step in international law and diplomacy and it is intended to send a signal that we do not want Canadian passports tampered with in the future.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, point of order.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

I am informed that we do not have points of order in adjournment proceedings.

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6.59 p.m.)