Debates of Oct. 7th, 1997

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board Act

[Joe Jordan, Liberal, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Madam Speaker, I listened to the member for Calgary Southeast. The debate has two levels. Clearly our parties disagree on the function of the retirement system. I think we would all agree on that.

I also marvel at the member's skills in terms of making speeches. He has a lot to bring to the debate, but to simply harp on about the form of the system when what he is really talking about is the function does not do any good.

One thing that disturbed me was when the member spoke of his youth. Clearly I do not know exactly what role that plays in the debate, but he opened the door and I will try to get my rickety old body through it. Just because the member speaks of his youth does not mean he speaks for the youth.

I watched that party across the way during the election. Its advertising strategy seems to be let Canada separate from Quebec. We recently went through a colleague of his going through let B.C. separate from Canada.

When he talks about the younger generation not being willing to pay for some of the deficits that are owed in terms of the plan to the old, I would caution him that generations should not be autonomous.

There is a generation of Canadians that went to war to pay the price for his freedom. He simply stood up and said “my generation now, at our age, doesn't think this is a good deal for us, so forget the older generation Canadians”.

I would like a clear answer from the member. Is he laying the groundwork for the third pillar of the Reform Party, which is youth separation? Am I going to have to stand up here and fight against that? Is that something that the hon. member does not stand for?

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I can assure the hon. member that I am a strong federalist as are my colleagues in this party. I do think I speak for a large number of young Canadians.

It is interesting that there are nine members of Parliament on this side of the House under the age of 30 and none on that side of the House. I think that says something.

I said during my speech at the very beginning that I would like to be on record as a young Canadian supporting a strong, fully funded retirement income system which ensures that no Canadians fall between the cracks in their older years.

Therefore yes, I do recognize those obligations and do want to fully fund those obligations. I did say it would not be easy to do that.

In the context of funding the obligations to older Canadians, we can also give more retirement security to younger Canadians at lower cost than what the government is proposing.

That is why I encourage hon. members to vote against Bill C-2 and to support a private mandatory retirement savings vehicle, a defined contribution plan which would give more retirement security at lower cost to my generation as well as to all Canadians.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Wentworth—Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this is one time I really regret not having an opportunity to ask a question of the previous speaker, the member for Calgary Southeast, rather than having a 10-minute speech.

The question I would have asked him pertains to his continued attacks on the MP pension plan. One does not like to hear old time rhetoric from supposedly new style politicians.

As it happens, when he attacks the MP pension plan, he alludes to the fact that in the last Parliament the majority of Reform MPs, all but one, opted out of the pension plan. That was by statute. We had to make a legislative change because the pension plan for parliamentarians is mandatory. What has been the case of the MPs of the Reform Party of the class of '97 recently elected?

A change of statute, a vote in this Parliament, is required for the MPs of the class of '97 to have the option of opting out of the MP pension plan. Instead of moving legislation or proposing a private member's bill, what the Reform Party has done is that each one of the class of '97 has written to Treasury Board saying they want to opt out of the MP pension plan.

The problem with that is, as they should know, Treasury Board does not have the power to act. It can only be done by statute.

The question I would like to have put to the member for Calgary Southeast, and I am sorry he does not have an opportunity to reply, is whether he is prepared right now to move a private member's bill, which he can write himself, giving MPs the option of opting out of the pension plan. If the Reform Party were really sincere in all it says, it should have done this long ago.

The rest of my speech has to do with the accountability, a term MPs opposite seem to like to throw around, of what has been said in debate by the opposition parties, chiefly the Leader of the Opposition.

I listened with great care to the speech of the member for Calgary Southwest because I am a great believer that, in this Parliament, when the opposition speaks it must speak constructively. It has an important role in making legislation better.

I did not find the kind of constructive criticism that I would like to have found from the Leader of the Opposition. Instead I found, for example, the Leader of the Opposition criticizing Bill C-2 because it does not have a preamble. He says the reason it should have a preamble is so the courts will know how to interpret the legislation. He actually says there is a legal reason and that every time Parliament passes a statute it has to make its intent crystal clear.

If the hon. member for Calgary Southwest had consulted with a competent lawyer he would have been told that a preamble has no legal force in the courts. When a judge approaches legislation for interpretation he is not required in any way to follow the preamble. The legal profession disparagingly refers to preambles in legislation as the pious hope clause.

When there is a preamble in legislation it is usually a political smoke screen which comes out of the department that writes the legislation, usually the Department of Justice.

I will give the House a perfect example of a misleading preamble. It is the preamble to Bill C-46, which the party opposite fully supported at third reading. That bill had to do with restricting the rights of the accused in obtaining records from therapists in sexual assault trials. Remember that the opposition party completely supported that bill. It had a wonderful preamble which outlined how it would protect the rights of victims, how it would do this, that and the other thing. It outlined how the legislation would obey the charter.

Within months of getting through Parliament it is being challenged in Alberta because it defies natural justice. It destroys the right of the accused to defend themselves. It has also been challenged in and overturned by the courts of Ontario.

This is the case of a preamble which was put into legislation that was fundamentally bad. Learned parliamentarians on all sides of the House supported a law which should not have been supported.

I suggest that the hon. member for Calgary Southwest, instead of proposing that bills have preambles, should be condemning preambles. Legislation speaks for itself clause by clause.

The hon. member for Calgary Southwest talked forever about payroll taxes. The point he was trying to make was that increases to CPP premiums are a tax. He cited all kinds of academics to prove the point that the increases to CPP premiums are a tax.

It is certainly true that no one likes to talk about a new tax, be it in Parliament or anywhere in the country. Certainly the government would prefer not to talk about it as a tax. The reasoning is that because the government does not directly collect the tax one should not think of it as being a tax.

The argument was not fully developed by the hon. member for Calgary Southwest. The argument is if it is mandatory, if it is taken off a worker's payroll, then it is a tax. It is a tax because it is mandatory. The hon. member for Calgary Southwest said the government is not being genuine because it is really a tax.

What do we find later in his speech? He talks about super RRSPs which are mandatory. In other words, the other party, while condemning the government for proposing a pension tax, is proposing a tax itself. It is a matter of semantics. Perhaps it is a misunderstanding of the language. The reality is that a mandatory super RRSP is a tax as well.

Finally I come to the issue of accountability. The Leader of the Opposition condemned Bill C-2 because he felt it merely required annual reports and proper reporting by the investment board which will be responsible for the funds under its charge, which is a huge innovation in the bill to turn the management of the pension funds over to an investment panel which will invest them in the open market and do so wisely.

Again the member for Calgary Southwest missed the point. Instead of condemning the fact that Bill C-2 wanted reporting he really should have gone after the bill and said that this is the kind of reporting we want. I do not blush as a government member to warn my government that I am dissatisfied with this aspect of the bill. What is missing from the bill is an itemized account of what we expect from this investment board when it presents its annual report.

We want to know the remuneration of the executives. We want to know the cost of administration and management. We want to know the investment plan. We want to know investment performance. Rather than condemning the government, and Bill C-2 because it wants annual reports, the Leader of the Opposition missed an opportunity for valid criticism and he has left it again to the government backbenchers to warn the government that it has not fully examined the bill. I hope the committee will look very carefully at this whole matter of what kind of accountability there should be.

I also listened very carefully to the remarks of the member for Sherbrooke. He is the leader of the fifth party, I believe. We find Sesame Street economics. This member condemned the bill because it took $11 billion out of the economy over six years. Somehow he does not seem to understand that this investment board is going to reinvest it in the economy, in the open market. It will reinvest the money in Canada.

Later the member for Sherbrooke complained that he wanted RRSPs to be permitted to invest 50% in foreign investment instead of 20%. He is proposing that Canadian pension funds be invested outside Canada. He is not interested in investing in Canada, and no wonder. That party did not succeed very well in the election of 1993.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to this bill that will finally bring the CPP up to date. It must be admitted that the existing plan has a few shortcomings and is in need of improvement. There is certainly no need to replace it with the sort of formula the Reform Party is proposing, but adjustments are in order.

I think it is also important for those Quebeckers listening to know that very few Quebeckers are affected by the CPP, because a similar plan, the Quebec pension plan, was set up at the same time as the CPP. This evokes memories of a time when some form of co-operation with the federal government was possible.

Members will recall the Pearson era, when Quebeckers were allowed to create the Quebec pension lan, and even to make original contributions, such as the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, an idea which the government has picked up on in the new bill before us today.

The only Quebeckers affected by the CPP are those who have paid CPP premiums, whether they live in Quebec or decide to move there, as well as members of the Canadian Armed Forces and the RCMP. Approximately 12,000 Quebeckers are affected by the plan.

For most Canadians, however, these are significant changes. The increase in premiums will reach 9.9% in 2003. We understand that this increase is due to adjustments required to ensure that the plan can meet the objectives for which it was created.

I think it important to point out that there have been many shortcomings in how the plan's money has been built up in the 20 years it has been around and that we thought the present bill needed to be improved in this regard. In this sense, the Canada pension plan investment board seems like an interesting idea. It is not too direct a market competitor for the Caisse de dépôt et placement because it does not actually have an economic mandate. Its only mandate is to ensure that the funds are managed as well as possible. As a matter of fact, there were major deficiencies in this respect.

I would like to add that I am somewhat surprised by the Reform amendment where it says that the system will be even more unfair to young people when in fact the proposed premium increase will come mainly from the pockets of the baby boomers, that is to say those who are presently aged between 40 and 55, and I am one of them.

It is normal to some extent that we pay more. Indeed, had corrections not been done, we would have ended up receiving benefits for which we would not really have paid premiums and nothing would have been done to ensure that younger people do not have to pay disproportionate amounts for what we, the so-called baby boomers, will be entitled to in terms of benefits.

It seems to me that the position of the Reform Party and their amendment are untenable. The purpose of this bill is not to reform the plan at the expense of the younger generations, but rather to reduce intergenerational inequity by ensuring that everyone pays his or her fair share.

What is missing in this bill and is of great interest to me is mention of what will become of the seniors benefit, commonly called old age pension. Under the current pension plan, the various sources of income available to those eligible for benefits because of their age include private retirement plans such as RRSPs and supplementary pension plans. There are also the public plans, namely the Quebec pension plan and the Canada pension plan. Then there is old age security, the guaranteed income supplement and the spouse's allowance.

Once this bill on the CPP is passed, it will be very important to hold a true consultation across the country regarding the seniors benefit. What little information we have received so far on the government's proposal involves very fundamental issues for the future of pension plans in Canada.

There is, among other things, the universality of benefits. Many people who had planned their retirement based on an existing plan will face a situation different than the one they expected, simply because the government has decided, with this bill, to protect those aged 59 and over. The government should ensure that much younger people have the option to choose between the existing plan and the one that will be implemented in the months to come.

The plan protects those who are already in the current system. These people will not be affected. This is a good thing, but we have to make sure that those who will have to live with the new plan can do so under acceptable conditions. This is why I call upon the solidarity of older people, of those already covered by the existing plan.

The initial reaction of a person aged 65 or 70 could be: “I am protected under my plan. I don't necessarily need to be worried about the coming reform”. However, those who can give the most intelligent opinion, the one most closely reflecting day to day reality, are the people who are 65 or 70 years old today and are living with the current program, those who receive the guaranteed income supplement, who can tell us how it would be if they had to live from day to day on an income that came solely from the new form of allowance the Government of Canada is proposing, and can tell us there would be major problems.

This consultation would, therefore, have to be transparent, and carried out in such a way that everyone may grasp the issues and that all strata of society may have a chance to be heard. The new pension plan is going to be very important to the baby boomers, but it is also going to be important for those who are 20, 25 or 30 years old today, because this will be their opportunity to define the framework under which they will have to live in the years to come.

It is important to look at the Canada pension plan in the perspective of this reform of the seniors benefit.

I would like the government to be more attentive in the next consultations than it was in previous ones, such as the consultations on the employment insurance reform. If the past were any indication of the future, it would be a cause for concern.

The Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities toured Canada and visited all the provinces to hear what people thought of the proposed employment insurance plan. The consultations did not lead to the results expected.

Again today, we see basic common sense in the auditor general's report, but considered, calculated, assessed and providing the same result as the committee's consultations. In other words, the employment insurance plan must be managed by its contributors—employers and employees—and government must provide an accounting of the way it determines contribution amounts and ensure that the surplus is properly directed to ensure that job creation objectives are met.

The type of consultation done for employment insurance should be done for seniors pensions, but with greater guarantees that the government will listen to those consulted, who will tell us what they want in a benefits plan for seniors, so that after the Canada pension plan is reformed with the change to seniors benefits, we are sure that our seniors have an adequate pension plan. Perhaps the most respectful way a society can acknowledge the contributions of its citizens is in the treatment it accords its seniors.

[Larry McCormick, Liberal, Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox And Addington, ON]

Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on Bill C-2. I also congratulate on you your appointment.

Bill C-2 amends the Canada pension plan and secures the future for all Canadians. No government has ever consulted more widely across the country than the Liberal government. We consulted all Canadians from sea to sea on the future of the CPP and on Canadians' vision for the future of the CPP.

Now Bill C-2 allows the CPP to be an investment for Canadians, by Canadians and in Canada. This will be a win-win situation and we will not burden future generations.

My hon. colleague who spoke before me talked about our extensive consultations with the HRD committee, on which he was a very hard working member. The social security review was good and much will come from it. We have set the direction for social security into the next century.

Today we heard the Reform party attack everything we are doing. I commended the hon. member from Quebec on his good attendance and good work in committee. The HRD committee set an all time record for the amount of hours spent here in Ottawa and on the road. I have to disclose that Reform members were not there to listen to Canadians.

It is shameful that they took this opportunity to cross the country and hold their own town hall meetings and then bring the reports back. Reformers are only wanting to represent the views of their own members and not of Canadians.

[An hon. member]

We could not get a hearing before the committee.

[Larry McCormick, Liberal, Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox And Addington, ON]

The hon. member opposite says he could not get a hearing before that committee. When we were in Calgary for two days there was a lot of opportunity for walk-ins. If the hon. member had been there he could have been heard.

Last February a federal-provincial agreement was reached on changes to ensure that the Canada pension plan would be sustainable in the future and would make it more fair and more affordable for all Canadians.

The changes are the result of the latest statutory review of the CPP that the federal and provincial governments, as joint stewards of the plan, began in 1995. They reflect what was said during extensive public consultations that were held across Canada in 1996. The key recurring theme was that Canadians believe in the CPP and they want it preserved.

Most participants believe this can be accomplished by strengthening the plan's financing, improving its investment practices and moderating the growth in costs.

This agreement answers the concerns of the residents of my riding and of most Canadians. This is a very balanced approach.

Federal and provincial ministers agreed on a three part approach to restore the financial sustainability of the CPP and make it fairer and affordable for future generations by moving to fuller funding; by accelerating contribution rate increases now so that it will not have to exceed the 10% for future generations; improving the rate of return on the CPP fund by investing it prudently in a diversified portfolio of securities at arm's length from the government; slowing the growth by tightening the administration of benefits and by changing the way that some are calculated.

The following important features of the Canada pension plan remain unchanged. Anyone currently receiving CPP retirement pensions, disability benefits, survivor benefits or combined benefits will not see these benefits affected. Persons over the age of 65 as of December 31, 1997 who elect to start CPP retirement pensions after that date will also not see these pensions affected.

All benefits under the CPP except the one time death benefit will remain fully indexed to inflation. The age of retirement, early, normal or late, will remain unchanged.

Building up a larger fund, fuller funding and earning a higher rate of return through investment in the market will help pay for the rapidly growing cost that will occur once baby boomers begin to retire. This is what Canadians have asked the government for, to ensure that their Canada pension plan will be there in the future.

Accordingly, the Canada pension plan will move from pay as you go financing to fuller funding to build a substantially larger reserve fund.

Contribution rates will rise over the next six years from the current rate of 5.85% to 9.9% and then remain steady instead of rising to 14.2% in the year 2030 as predicted by the chief actuary. In dollar terms an employee earning $35,800 a year now pays about $945 in contributions. In the year 2003 that employee will contribute about $1,635. Yes, that is $450 more than what is currently legislated for that year. However, by the year 2030 employees will be paying $565 less a year than if we had not acted now. Increasing rates more rapidly now will cover the cost of each contributor's own benefits plus a uniform share of the unfunded burden that has built up. These costs will not be passed on to future generations.

There will be positive changes to the benefits and to the administration of the CPP. Changes proposed are how benefits will be administered and calculated in order to moderate the growth of costs. By the year 2030 costs will be reduced by just over 9% compared to what they otherwise would be by then.

Stewardship and accountability are the most important facets of the CPP. To improve stewardship of the CPP and provide for more accountability so that the sustainability of CPP is not again put at risk, federal-provincial reviews will be required every three years rather than every five. Any future benefits will be fully funded.

In any future statutory review of the plan, new default provisions will identify the steps necessary if the chief actuary calculates the CPP to be no longer sustainable at the steady state rate and ministers cannot reach a consensus on actions to sustain the plan.

Canadians will now receive regular statements about their pensions with the intent to provide annual statements to all contributors as soon as possible. The CPP investment board will provide quarterly financial statements and will report to Canadians on the performance of the fund. It will hold public meetings at least every two years so Canadians can know what is going on in every province. CPP annual reports will provide more complete information and will explain how administrative problems are being addressed. Other issues are up for review. These changes will restore the CPP sustainability and make it more fair and affordable for all future generations.

Partial pensions. Many Canadians want to make a gradual transition to retirement. This opens up the possibility of more jobs for younger Canadians. This will be made possible by providing partial pensions during the transition while Canadians can continue to work and earn further pension credits. We are going to examine this and I hope we can make great progress.

Survivor benefits. Compared with today when 68% of working age women are in the workforce, in the past, when the CPP survivor benefits were designed, most women did not work outside the home. Ways to update survivor benefits to reflect changing realities and the needs of today's families will be examined.

In response to misinformation that is being supplied across Canada by the official opposition I want to repeat that there is no change in the age of retirement. There is no change in the contribution rates past the 9.9% that is being set now. It will be held steady. We will know what the rate will be in the future. The year's basic exemption, which is now $3,500, will be frozen at $3,500. There is no change to the maximum pensionable earnings. All benefits except the death benefit will be fully indexed.

Again I want to say that good government makes a difference. This government has certainly listened to Canadians. We have held hearings in every riding that we represent and we are happy to talk to Canadians.

[Rob Anders, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Madam Speaker, I would like to tell you a story about some mad scientists. Many people know them as social engineers. They have this theory, this idea that the more centralized a project is, the better it is. They also believe the more people that are involved, the better it is. But these scientists have a problem. There are so many observations that refute this theory. These fallacies of theirs are obstacles that prevent this scientific theory from becoming a scientific law.

These social engineers have staked their reputations, even their views of the world, on this framework of centralizing more jobs, but the anomalies are overwhelming. Hence we have a real crisis. They created this crisis called the Canada pension plan.

I will talk about a number of these anomalies, these complications they had. First, other government run disasters do not work. Government members point to their own example when they talk about how it is a half trillion dollars underfunded. There is also the Quebec pension plan. Although it is better than the CPP it has repeatedly earned a rate of return substantially below the market average for investments.

I look to my own province with the Alberta Heritage Fund which squandered hundreds of millions of dollars on Gainers meat packing and Novatel. Those are two examples but there are more. Even Singapore's Central Providence Fund will not be able to meet even the modest levels of retirement benefits estimated by the Central Providence Fund itself. We have examples within Canada and without that point to government run disasters on investment funds like this.

When these Liberal social engineers set up the CPP in 1966 they made some promises. Paul Martin Senior and his Liberal cronies said that it would “never cost more than a few hundred dollars”. Those were their own words. Yet today Liberals are talking about something in the thousands of dollars which is 10 times what their initial promises were. But oh no, we should trust them.

The Liberals also promised the CPP would never climb above 5% contributions, but lo and behold they are talking about 9.9% as though it was nothing. They say that's it. Can we trust them now?

It was a con job all along. We know that now. And it is still a con job. Some people are convinced that they are entitled to this tax. I say that if it comes out of your pocket, if it is taken out of your wallet, it is called extortion; if it goes back into your pocket once the government has taken it, then it is blood money. It is paying you off. It is trying to buy back your support with the fruits of your own labour. The GST rebate worked the same way.

The Liberals said that Canadians asked for these changes. I do not remember being asked if I wanted the CPP tax doubled. I have friends on this side of the House who wanted to make application before the travelling board and they did not get an opportunity.

Even if were dense, I surely would have remembered the government selling this high priority Canada pension plan tax hike during the election campaign. It is a high priority bill that is being introduced right after the election. Surely the Liberals would have mentioned it there and I would not have missed it.

Where was the tax increase mentioned in the Liberal red book? I did not see it. I am not blind and I do not think I am all that deaf, but nonetheless these things were not talked about during the campaign. I am reminded of when the Liberals broke their promises on the GST.

I doubt whether doubling the CPP would have passed a referendum vote. They say it is something that is grassroots and democratic. If they put a vote to the citizens of this country in terms of whether or not they want to see a doubling of their CPP, they know that would fail.

The Liberals have more tricks in their bag. They bent the ears of the provincial governments. How did they do that? The Liberals bought off the provinces with promises of cheap loans that would be available due to the federal government's extra CPP tax revenue.

History has a funny way of repeating itself. The last time the government raised the CPP tax it squandered pension funds in provincial bonds at below market rates. We could well see that type of thing again. Canadians would once again be in the debt hole and the Liberals would once again come back to them and say “Trust us. This time it is only going to be 15% or 20%.”

This job killing tax hike is going to bring in nearly $11 billion over and above what it does now. That is $700 extra per year for every working Canadian. According to a Department of Finance study acquired through an access to information request, the increase in compulsory contributions from 3.6% to 5% that happened between 1986 and 1993 reduced employment by nearly 26,000 jobs. These are the same people who are saying this tax hike will not cost jobs. This Department of Finance study indicates that the Liberal tax hike this time could kill up to 75,000 jobs.

I would like to quote the finance minister. In 1994 in his blueprint for the economy entitled A New Framework for Economic Policy, he said “Higher payroll taxes increase the cost of labour and reduce the incentive to create new jobs.” It is 75,000 fewer jobs. That is what the finance minister is talking about. The Liberals do not like to call it a tax hike or a payroll tax, but that is what it is. It reminds me that the Liberals are short-sighted. They only see as far ahead as the next election because the finance minister can say one thing in 1994 and another thing in 1997.

Indeed, members opposite said during the beginning of this debate that they only realized there was a problem three years ago in 1994. They did not sense this baby boom population bubble. They did not feel it. They were oblivious to it. Marketers, demographic trend setters, everybody was talking about it but the government did not know.

This Liberal plan was created in 1966. Surely these people could not turn a blind eye to this. They were not daft, or were they? They should have known and anticipated this bubble in the demographic trends. For them to notice the plan even on their own admission only three years ago, it has taken them this long to finally catch wind that it has to be changed, that it has to be reformed. It sounds very fishy indeed.

What we have is a government that wants to bring in a tax hike right after an election. What they are hoping is that people are going to forget it, but I do not think that is going to be the case.

The Liberals claim that the screw-up they created could have been worse. If they had stuck their head in the sand a little bit longer, then the hike would actually have been 14%. This is so typical of Liberal promises. They promise to spend taxpayers' money and then when they do not spend it they say “We are heroes. We've saved you money because we didn't spend your 14%. We are only doubling it to 10%”.

I am going to make a prediction, and this will be very short. The Liberals are bringing in this tax hike early in their term and they are hoping the people are going to forget about it by the time of the next election. This increase only gets worse over time, and its coat tails will be long.

If they cut taxes, they might not slit their own throats but if foreign pressure on interest rates causes them to rise, especially with a separatist vote in Quebec, then they will dig their own debt grave.

[Susan Whelan, Liberal, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to participate in the debate today on such an important issue for Canadians.

In recent years, as hon. members may know, a number of social, economic and demographic trends have developed, such as declining birth rates, increased life expectancy and lower than anticipated growth in productivity and wages, which, if unaddressed, could challenge the sustainability of Canada's public pension system.

This is why we committed ourselves to strengthening Canada's public pension system. The legislation that we are debating, Bill C-2, will enact the joint federal-provincial agreement reached last February to change the Canada pension plan, or CPP as it is known. It is legislation that will place the Canada pension plan on a solid financial footing.

The first point that I would like to make is that whatever the circumstances, CPP will be there for Canadians when they need it. In fact the very reason we are making changes now is to ensure that it is there in the future.

In his February 1995 report, the chief actuary clearly showed that without modification to the Canada pension plan, the CPP fund would be exhausted by the year 2015 and that contribution rates would have had to soar to over 14% to cover the rapid growth in cost. That would be a 240% increase.

It is only through responsible action now that we can avoid bankruptcy and truly intolerable CPP rates later, an increase now with a number of generations sharing the burden or an increase later for our children's generation.

Before moving to make changes to CPP, we held extensive consultations with Canadians. During 33 sessions held in 18 cities throughout Canada, more than 270 formal presentations were made to allow the government to find out what Canadians thought should happen to their plan. Canadians had no reservations in their expectations. They wanted the plan preserved, its financing strengthened and its investment practices improved. We have done that.

I would like to take a moment to tell my constituents what remains the same under CPP legislation and how the plan is being preserved. Anyone currently receiving Canada pension plan benefits, be it retirement pensions, disability benefits or survivor benefits, can rest assured that they will not see these benefits affected in any way.

Anyone currently receiving Canada pension plan benefits will not see these benefits affected in any way. All benefits now and in the future will remain fully indexed to inflation. The ages of early retirement, normal retirement or late retirement all remain unchanged.

What has changed? Let me try to describe the changes today. Effective January 1, 1998 retirement pensions will be based on the average of the year's maximum pensionable earnings in the last five years prior to starting the pension. In the past they were based on a three year average. The amount of the pension will continue to be dependent on how much and for how long a person contributes to the plan.

The administration of disability benefits will be further improved. The appeal process will be streamlined and the legislation will be applied more consistently. To be eligible for disability benefits workers must have made Canada pension plan contributions in four of the last six years prior to becoming disabled. Presently a person needs to make Canada pension contributions in two of the three years previous or five of the last ten years in order to be eligible to apply and qualify for disability benefits.

The rules for combining the survivor and disability benefits and the survivor and retirement benefits will be largely the same as those in existence before 1987. However, changes will limit the extent to which these benefits can be added together.

The death benefit will continue to be equal to six months of retirement benefits but up to a maximum of $2,500 rather than the current $3,580. The option to eliminate the death benefit was rejected by the federal and provincial governments together.

Through enacting the legislation after careful consideration with Canadians the government will ensure that the Canada pension plan is there for future generations, that it is there at an affordable premium and that the benefits are guaranteed for those future generations. Due to our plan some 75% of the reduction has been made on the financing side and only 25% on the benefit side.

The CPP will continue to be affordable. Canada pension plan contribution rates will increase in steps to 9.9% by 2003 or 4.95% for each employer and employee and then remain unchanged instead of reaching the 14.2% projected by the chief actuary for the year 2030.

The Canada pension plan will move from pay as you go financing to fuller funding to build a much larger reserve fund. It will grow in value from two years of benefits currently to about four or five years of benefits. It should be noted that the yearly basic exemption, the first $3,500 of earnings on which no contributions are paid, will be maintained and frozen.

Without these changes future generations would have to pay 14.2% for the same benefits we are currently paying only 5.85% for.

Until now CPP contributions not needed to pay for benefits have been lent mainly to the provinces at the federal government's interest rate on long term bonds. Under this new legislation Canada pension plan funds will now be invested in a diversified portfolio of securities prudently and at arm's length from government.

This means that Canada pension plan funds will be invested in stocks, bonds including provincial bonds, and mortgages. Instead of being lent in their entirety to the provinces we are now in the position with the passing of the legislation to make the investment philosophy of the Canada pension plan more market oriented. This is consistent with investment policies in most public and private pension plans in Canada.

Based on prudent assumptions the Canada pension plan can secure an average long run return of almost 4% a year above the rate of inflation. That compares with only 2.5% assumed under the current policy of the chief actuary. As well, from now on whenever provincial governments borrow from the Canada pension plan they will pay the same rate of interest that they pay on their market borrowings. That is making smart use of public money.

During cross-Canada consultations Canadians told us they wanted the Canada pension plan to run like a private pension plan. In response we have provided that the fund will be managed independently from government by a 12 member investment board. The investment board is accountable to Canadians and their governments through regular reports.

The board will be subject to investment rules similar to other public and private funds in Canada. Therefore the transparency for Canada pension plans of the future is the same transparency in private plans throughout the rest of Canada.

It should be noted that Canadians will start to receive regular statements on the pensions they are earning. We intend to provide annual statements to all contributors as soon as it is feasible. Canadians will receive an annual statement which will show how the Canada pension plan is progressing. Canadians will have the opportunity to see year to year the retirement future their contributions are building.

Last February in the House of Commons the Minister of Finance tabled the first draft of Canada pension plan legislation, in case the member for Calgary West was unaware. In response to the comments received further refinements were made to the legislation and revised draft legislation was released in July for further comment.

The measures proposed in the bill today will become law once the legislation is passed by parliament and support orders in council are received from the provinces that are party to last February's agreement. This will permit the changes to take effect on January 1, 1998.

Finally I would like to take this opportunity to answer some of the critics of these changes. There are some who advocate scrapping CPP and moving to a privatized system with mandatory retirement savings plans. I believe they do not understand two things.

First and foremost, Canadians want the Canada pension plan to remain. Canadians want a public pension plan that is available to everyone.

Second, the Canada pension plan provides protection not available through private RRSPs such as disability benefits and survivor and death benefits.

The Canada pension plan is part of our public pension plan system along with old age security and guaranteed income supplement. Together these three pillars ensure that all our eggs are not in the same basket. The changes reflect the long held Liberal values of providing stability for and protecting those in need.

It was a Liberal government that introduced the Canada pension plan over 30 years ago in 1966, and now this Liberal government is making the necessary changes to ensure the future of the Canada pension plan for all Canadians. This allows all Canadians to prepare for their future together.

[Jim Gouk, Reform, West Kootenay—Okanagan, BC]

Madam Speaker, my comments are sparked in part by the last member who spoke and some of the other members who have spoken today, in particular those on the Liberal side.

I find it very ironic and kind of sad that they would stand and talk about Reform's plan when obviously they have never read it. They have never opened the book, or they read it and they chose to ignore it, to say things they know are not stated in the book and to ignore the things that really are there.

It is unfortunate they would prey on the fears of Canadians, those who have already retired and those approaching retirement, to try to sell a very bad plan of their own.

It has been mentioned today that it started at 5%. They were told it was a wonderful plan and that it would never go up. Now it is doubling from that early start.

I want to speak about one aspect of the plan, the impact of the raising of the payroll taxes to 9.9% on business, in particular small business.

Speaking again of false comments made by the government, its members seem to want to imply that Reform's plan is to scrap CPP and instead simply have people put their money into RRSPs.

Members who think like this are the ones who have not actually read the plan. The plan is an RRSP type system changed over from the existing Canada pension plan. It is not paid out of rich profits from a high paid job but in fact paid by the same deductions that are going into the Canada pension plan right now, money that has been squandered, money that has been spent and still results in a $600 billion liability on the part of the Canada pension plan. I just want to make sure people understand that.

I hope hon. members opposite listen to this example. I welcome heckling when I am speaking. I actually feed on it. Sometimes it gives me some good stuff to carry on with in my speech. When all their friends are away, I hope they get a chance to think of this one point personally and consider it from a non-partisan point of view.

Before I came to this place I had a small construction company that built about eight houses a year. During that time I was doing other things. My company, which was primarily myself, made a profit of about $6,500 per house.

I employed carpenters, plumbers, electricians, excavation people with their equipment, roofers, drywallers and any number of people. I bought supplies from people all over town and throughout my region. It was a good economic engine for the small community and the region I come from.

I had three people who virtually worked full time for me. If I consider the number of people who worked for me as I needed them for drywalling, roofing or some other components, it worked out to be the equivalent of about 10 full-time positions. It was as if I had 10 people full time who, if they had the particular talents, would have been able to do all the jobs. It would have created an annual income for those people.

According to the Liberal plan the wages I paid those people would be subject to this new payroll tax for the purpose of CPP. It would amount to $650 per head. What would be the impact on a small company?

As I said, I made about $6,500 a house and I had the equivalent of 10 full-time positions. As the employer my share would have been $650 times 10. The gross profit for one-eighth of my productivity as a builder would have gone to pay the increased CPP premiums.

When I had people working for me they liked to maintain some form of standard of living. They were pretty reasonable people. If I was still running my company and this increase came along, I suspect many of them would have come to me and said “We know times are tough. We know that the economy is tight. We are not looking for a raise but we certainly cannot afford a cut in pay. What we need is enough of a raise to pay the increase in our CPP premiums”.

They were hard workers. I would have been hard pressed not to have given it to them, but had I done so it would have been another $650 per employee for the equivalent of 10 full-time employees or $6,500, the gross profit from another house.

This was a viable small business and the increase in the Canada pension plan premium, a payroll tax, would have taken 25% of my gross profits from that construction company.

Government members will say that it is a government bill and they have to vote for it. I understand their dilemma. A member of the House who does not happen to belong to the Liberal Party any longer voted according to the way his conscience and his constituents directed him. Consequently he sits on this side of the House because the Liberal Party threw him out. They are not allowed to vote the way they think is in the best interests of Canadians in general or their constituents in particular.

I hope government members will raise this matter in caucus, speak to the minister and speak to the critics who deal with the Canada pension plan. If that is what would have happened to the small business I operated in Castlegar, in the interior of British Columbia, think what it will do to countless hundreds of thousands of businesses across the country.

The Liberals talk about job creation. How in God's name can jobs be created when they increase a payroll tax on people which will ultimately result in 25% of the profit from a small company going out the window? It will not work.

I hope that each of those members will say that they did not look at it from the point of view of employment. They are saying they looked at it from the point of view of rescuing the plan. There are much better ways to rescue the plan than simply throwing more money at it and in doing so destroying the economy of the country by destroying a lot of small businesses.

Instead of spouting the rhetoric thrown by the minister down to them they should read Reform's plan. It is an alternative. It is not the destruction of a pension plan. It is looking at it from the point of view that we have to ensure an income for people in their retirement and we have to make it affordable not only in terms of premiums but in job creation and sustainability. They look at it and say the 9.9% now will be the be all and end all to save the plan. It is the same thing that Liberals of days gone by said when it was brought in at 5%.

I hope my speech gives the Liberals something to think about. I appreciate the attention Liberal members have paid and I truly hope they will reconsider this in a non-partisan manner. If they do, I promise that I will not try and roast them by saying they were wrong. I will congratulate them on their re-examination and their concern for Canadians instead of just following the rhetoric of a few.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin, ON]

Madam Speaker, I congratulate you on your new office. This is the first chance I have had to speak with you in the chair.

As I listen to members opposite, particularly members of the Reform Party, it becomes more clear that we are dealing with two very fundamentally different visions not only of the Canada pension plan but of the country.

History would make it clear that Liberal governments have put people and their communities first. I suggest the Reform Party would take us back decades when it was not so important that people and communities worked together for the good of all.

The Reform Party attempts to make an issue of sustainability with regard to the changes to the CPP and the program being in place in the future. I think it has much more to do with the kind of society we want for ourselves, our children and our grandchildren.

Throughout the last term of office and through the election campaign I did not hear much from the constituents in my riding of Algoma—Manitoulin calling for a privatized super RRSP for the future. If I heard concerns about the pension plan for the future they were to make sure that what Canada has such as the CPP and OAS will be there for us when we retire and for our children and our grandchildren. Their worry centred around the sustainability of the program and that it be available in the years to come.

While Reformers can argue that a super RRSP, according to their arithmetic, will be better for Canadians, when we get to fine details it is a much different story.

I will cite a couple of examples. The Reform Party claims to be the party of families, a fact which is quite disputable. Its proposal would not cover workers who take leave to look after children, which runs contrary to the fact that CPP does. Working poor families would have difficulty paying mandatory RRSPs and the extra insurance to replace the disability and death benefits provided by the CPP.

In a society where there is a general consensus to move toward a national drug plan, a pharmacare plan, and society is moving toward sharing the wealth in a reasonable way, Reform would have us go back to the beginning of the century when it was quite the opposite. In its plan we would forget the working poor family, the spouse who for one reason or another had to stay home to take of children. I use this as only one example of where the Reform plan would break down and the CPP would be there for spouses who stay home for children.

Reformers also neglect to point out that in a super RRSP plan a tremendous public subsidy is required. As we all know, when you invest in an RRSP, as all Canadians are able to do if they choose to and have the funds to do so, there is a commensurate tax reduction to reflect that investment.

The current system costs billions of dollars per year. It is a system whereby Canadians are redistributing their wealth. In a system totally dependent on RRSPs those with most of the wealth would be benefiting from most of the tax loss as a result of the tax deduction. In the current system which is a balance of RRSPs, Canada pension plan, OAS and the supplement, there is a broader range of pension options available to people. If we provide a pension plan based solely on the RRSP system there will be a much greater demand on the tax system than what we see right now.

It is incumbent on the Reform Party to make it clear that its system does not come without tremendous cost. I submit to the House that the cost will be much greater than what we are seeing right now. The CPP is not intended to be the only source of income for seniors, although by necessity it is for many. The overall pension system in Canada is designed to provide Canadians with a chance to blend several vehicles as they prepare for their retirement.

Much is made about the fact that premiums are going up. The Reform Party uses the word tax. Tax is not the correct word. The correct word is investment. When an employer through a payroll deduction makes a contribution to the CPP he is making an investment in the country for sure but also in the workers who work for him. When the employee makes a contribution to the CPP he too is making an investment.

The previous speaker from British Columbia mentioned his construction firm and the number of houses he made per year. If he asked his employees they would not see it unreasonable that 10 employees would see their premiums matched by the profit, just the profit on one of eight homes. They might see that simply as sharing the benefits that come with a capitalist society.

If we were to move in the direction that is proposed by the official opposition we would see a deterioration in a significant way of Canada's social safety net which is made up not only of our pension system but of the employment insurance system and the health care system.

The pension system is one of the very important three pillars that make up the social safety net. It is in the nature of our society and the reason we are envied throughout the world, it is in our nature to be compassionate to one another. That compassion is reflected in the fact that our pension system makes sure that in every reasonable case Canadians can provide some income for their pension.

When it comes to the cost of administering the Canada pension plan versus millions of private super RRSPs I do not think it takes rocket science to figure out that administration costs would be approximately $20 per person through the CPP versus $150 or $200 per person in a private RRSP plan. When it is all added up, a 10:1 ratio in favour of the CPP makes a lot more sense.

Why should we be spending pension dollars unnecessarily on the administration of a pension plan? The fact that these amendments include the creation of a board to ensure the CPP fund is invested in the most appropriate way for Canadians makes a lot of sense.

To distribute the administration of these funds to hundreds or thousands of fund administrators across the country makes very little sense at a time when we should be looking at better ways of spending our money. We have made changes that will ensure the sustainability of the CPP into the 21st century.

Canada's current government has seen fit to take charge of this issue and to move us forward in a way that most industrialized nations have not yet be able to do. I am pleased and proud to support the government's initiatives. To do contrary would be very irresponsible.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Thibeault)]

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Waterloo—Wellington, children; the hon. member for Vancouver East, post-secondary education; the hon. member for West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, foreign affairs.

[Maurice Dumas, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-2 on the reform of the CPP.

As is usual, I would like to begin by thanking all those in the riding of Argenteuil—Papineau for their vote of confidence in once again sending me to represent them in this 36th Parliament. I will continue to uphold their rights as staunchly as I have in the past.

This reform of the Canada pension plan is of particular interest to me because I am the Bloc Quebecois critic for seniors and also because it affects me as a member of that generation.

I have risen many times in the House to uphold the rights of seniors, one of society's most vulnerable groups. The Bloc Quebecois agrees in principle with the contents of Bill C-2 at second reading.

I am now going to give a brief history of this bill. The government introduced a preliminary bill in February 1997, followed by a revised bill last July. Amendments proposed by the federal government were approved by at least two thirds of provinces representing two thirds of the Canadian public, as required by law. Eight provinces in all, including Quebec, approved the proposed changes. Only British Columbia and Saskatchewan voted against.

Generally speaking, the Bloc Quebecois is in agreement with the primary objectives of this reform, with a few reservations. Indeed, I cannot help but mention that, on March 9, 1994, I asked a question to the then Minister of Human Resources Development concerning the reform of social programs.

As the official critic on seniors issues, I also made the following statement in the House, again in 1994, and I quote:

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

On March 9, the minister indicated in this House that he wanted to review old-age security programs. Following the general outcry caused by this announcement, the Prime Minister decided that the review would be limited to the Canada Pension Plan and RRSPs. This review was to be tabled last June but the government has clearly delayed it.

My question is this: Can the minister tell us why the government has delayed announcing its intentions by tabling the review promised for last June?

The following was part of the answer was:

We are presently speaking with a number of groups and organizations throughout Canada, particularly as they represent seniors, to get their point of view.

Allow me to wonder what the government's true intentions were, since it called an election before making good on that commitment. However, we realize that some changes have become necessary, because of the financial implications and of the plan's sustainability.

It had been forecasted that there would be no money left in the fund by the year 2015, at which time contribution rates would have gone up from 6% to 14% for the Canada pension plan, and from 6% to 13% for the Quebec pension plan.

The reform is also more of a concern to Canadians than to Quebeckers, since less than half of one per cent of Quebec residents receive CPP benefits.

So, the bill proposes the establishment of the CPP investment board, which will be quite similar to Quebec's Caisse de dépôt et placement. The Quebec government introduced Bill 149 to deal with the Quebec pension plan and to amend various related acts.

Allow me to reiterate the remark made by my hon. colleague from Mercier, who indicated that the Government of Canada and every province except Quebec should have taken Quebec's lead in 1964-65 when it established the Caisse de dépôt et placement.

While the Bloc Quebecois supports this reform's objective, which is to preserve this public pension plan, increasing contribution rates faster than initially planned will cause an increase in benefit funding. We believe that this in turn will reduce intergenerational inequity by charging more to baby boomers, who, generally speaking, have another 20 years to put in on the labour market.

I would also like to emphasize the changes proposed by the federal government with respect to the disability pension. Under an existing ministerial directive, any person over the age of 55 who is unable to perform the duties of his or her own job can be declared disabled. Now the federal government wants to repeal this directive, thereby making the administration of the plan much stricter.

We have never had any such directive in Quebec. The federal government wants to limit eligibility to those who have contributed to the plan for four of the past six years, which should make the plan considerably less accessible.

In Quebec, those who have contributed for two years out of the past three, five years out of the past ten or half of the contribution period are eligible for disability benefits. Unlike the federal government, the Government of Quebec is about to recognize a proportionately larger number of persons with a disability. The Bloc Quebecois cannot support this part of the CPP reform.

The Reform Party's proposal to establish a super RRSP is based in part on the model developed in Chile. According to the example provided by this country, however, the administrative costs of such a system are far higher than for the present ones. The Quebec pension plan devotes the equivalent of 1.7% of the amount paid out in benefits to plan administration.

In this system of super RRSPs, the government will have to guarantee an acceptable base income at the time of retirement, in the form of either a minimum pension or a separate assistance plan. In both cases, considerable costs are associated with this type of guaranteed minimum income.

This Reform Party position leads me to the position of the government, which is trying to worm out of it by shifting the administration of a government plan to a local administration. The Reform Party proposals will enable the government to assume the same attitude toward its responsibilities, as the example of ADM, Aéroports de Montréal, clearly illustrates.

As the member for Argenteuil-Papineau, I have spoken out on numerous occasions in defence of the development of Mirabel airport, which is located in my riding.

In order to understand the similarities, we must start with a brief review of the history of ADM. This is a not-for-profit body, or as it states in its letters patent, a corporation without share capital, constituted under part II of the Canada Corporations Act. The government is washing its hands by handing the airports over to this body, because it refers any taxpayer claims to it.

The Reform Party proposals relating to the reform of the Canada pension plan place the federal government in a similar position, since it can always answer that, in future, this plan is privately administered and is similar to the registered retirement savings plans.

The Bloc Quebecois has, moreover, never called for termination of the Canada pension plan, and I would refer you to my speeches in the House, which have always been along the same line: do not touch seniors rights.

The younger generations must also be able to benefit from a public pension plan. Our approach is the opposite of the Reform Party's.

I wish to repeat my position on seniors rights and to point out that October 1 of each year will always be a memorable day, because the United Nations have designated that day to mark the important role seniors play in society.

As well, the UN has decreed 1999 to be the international year for paying homage to seniors. Its theme, “Toward a society for all ages” is aimed at raising public awareness of the essential role seniors play in all sectors of activity.

[John Richardson, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to challenge the flawed reasoning by my opponents across the way and to demonstrate why our efforts to reform the Canada pension plan are far superior to any of the opposition plans and are much preferred to doing nothing.

Our plan is exactly the kind of preventive action that Canadians demand from their governments to avert future crisis in the Canada pension plan. While our opponents would rather we do nothing and let the program collapse, we are moving forward in a decisive way.

Before I reiterate the benefits of the government's well considered plan, I will refute the feeble assertions and the rhetorical rantings of our opponents.

When we came to power in 1993 we inherited a mismanaged plan from the Conservative government of the day. The procrastination of the Conservatives showed their unwillingness to act. If they had acted to repair the Canada pension plan in preparation for the growth in seniors then, we could have capitalized on the massive economic boom of the late 1980s. Instead, they did nothing. They believed that the issue was best left for future generations.

In a similar way the Tories ran their platform in the last election, they essentially said they would do what we would do but they would put it off longer and make more substantial increases in the future. Apparently they were not ready to let the future begin for Canada pension plan reform.

Yesterday I heard the NDP critic, the hon. member for Kamloops, compliment our efforts to reform the Canada pension plan as the economy changes. I thank him for his support of our plan and remind him that when he has the conversation on the Canada pension plan with his parents they or any other senior today will not be affected by any changes in the plan. We can put that yellow herring aside.

The NDP's plan during the election was just not practical. It wanted to maximize the payout while limiting the potential growth in the fund and its viability. This meant that some day Canadians would be forced to borrow to cover the difference or abandon the plan. This we find irresponsible.

This brings me to the Reform plan and the super RRSP. This is not what Canadians want. The Reform plan would break the covenant that was laid down when workers first began to pay into the pension plan in 1966 by breaking the pledge made to those workers by previous governments that the Canada pension plan would be there for them when they retire.

The mandatory Reform plan calls for higher increases in premiums, higher administrative costs and an additional private cost by Canadians to cover the private insurance for disability and death coverage. Reform plans to take this away.

In total it adds up to higher payments for young Canadians than our plan. In the name of intergenerational equity espoused by the member for Calgary Southeast, their fresh start on pensions is a false start for young Canadians.

In addition, the Globe and Mail speaks of the plans already under way. The future reform of Canada pension plan would enable the baby boomers out of the work force to reduce the unemployment of young having difficulty—

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Talk about your own plan instead of ours.

[John Richardson, Liberal, Perth—Middlesex, ON]

I have just heard the booming voice of the biggest teller of tall tales we have ever heard in this House.

What we have done is avert a crisis and we are doing it responsibly. Our government acting in co-operation with our provincial partners took the lead to restore financial footing of the plan. We held 33 sessions in 18 cities, hearing more than 270 former presentations from Canadians on the plan including young Canadians.

Canadians and young Canadians in particular have no hesitations in asking us to preserve the plan, strengthen its finances, improve its investment practice, and we are doing that. This bill addresses the concerns raised in our national hearings and again we thank the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance for their visionary leadership on the issue.

However, do not take our word for it. Listen to the words of others. The minister of finance of Ontario, a hero to many Reformers, on February 15, 1997 stated: “We have protected benefits for pensioners and secured a sound financial future for the plan and the people who need it”.

Christopher Clark of the Canadian Council on Social Development says: “It is highly ironic that proponents of dumping the Canada pension plan for private RRSP schemes often defend the idea in the name of intergenerational equity because it would be cheaper. It is neither equitable nor cheaper. As is the case with most quick fix privatization proposals, it sounds too good and easy to be true, and it probably is”.

The head of Business Council on National Issues agrees with him: “This agreement places Canada at the forefront of industrialized nations with problems linked to an aging population”.

Allan Tough, an actuary from Alberta, states in the Calgary Herald the importance of acting now: “With any problem it is better to face up to it now rather than later. The longer you delay, the worse it gets. A 9.9% contribution rate sounds definitely better for my children than going to 14% later”.

David Crane of the Toronto Star commented: “The announcement of higher premiums for the Canada pension plan should reassure Canadians on the long term viability of the plan to which all workers contribute”.

The CPP has become a key component of our national pension system. The amendments to the plan contained in Bill C-2 are designed as a package to stabilize the plan and ensure that it will continue to meet the needs of Canadians. If we continue forward ignoring reform to the pension system we can guarantee there will be no pension for Canadians and that is simply not an option. That is why I stand in my place and support this bold move to save this cherished covenant with working Canadians.

[Gordon Earle, NDP, Halifax West, NS]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak for a few moments on Bill C-2, an act to establish the Canada pension plan investment board and to amend the Canada Pension Plan and Old Age Security Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts. What a title and what a problem the government is creating with this bill.

As has already been indicated by previous speakers, this bill attempts to do a number of things, namely to discontinue the Canada pension plan advisory board and establish a Canada pension plan investment board, the main function of which will be to manage and invest Canada pension plan funds, to amend the contribution, benefit and funding provisions of the Canada pension plan, to tighten the eligibility for disability benefits and the rules for combining survivor and disability benefits and survivor and retirement benefits. It reduces the death benefit, it reduces the maximum CPP retirement pension through its formula for calculating retirement pensions.

Another thing this bill attempts to do involves harmonizing. We in Nova Scotia know that dreaded word, harmonizing, very well because we have the harmonized sales tax. This bill attempts to harmonize the CPP disability benefits with provincial workers compensation benefits and various other benefits, including those received from municipalities and private insurers.

As well Bill C-2 amends the Canada Pension Plan and Old Age Security Act with respect to information sharing, investigations and penalties. Indeed some of the clauses regarding information sharing and investigations require close scrutiny but that will be done at a later time.

Suffice it to say for now that we are opposed to this bill because it erodes the public pension system and the universality of that system. It erodes the system that was established in 1966 to provide all members of the paid labour force in Canada a base upon which to build their retirement income, as well as provide benefits in the case of serious disability or death.

The changes to the public pension system as proposed by this bill continue the trend of the Liberal government of penalizing the most vulnerable members of our society: low income workers, many of whom are women, the disabled and seniors. Again with respect to seniors, the changes proposed by this bill regarding OAS and GIS have profound implications for seniors and the income they can look forward to under the new seniors benefit proposal.

The government is creating more difficulties for people by introducing a bill that will force low income workers to pay more in contributions, that will cause fewer people to obtain benefits by tightening the eligibility for disability, that will create greater clawbacks on seniors' incomes, that will take away a person's right to have his or her own benefit by consolidating the income of both spouses. Rather than creating these kinds of difficulties through Bill C-2, we believe the government would be better advised to spend its time correcting the problems which already exist in the Canada pension plan rather than creating new problems.

I am referring specifically to the kinds of problems which we see every day in our constituency offices. By far the largest volume of case work in Halifax West concerns Canada pension plan disability. The same I believe is true in other NDP metro ridings and I am sure across the province and perhaps even across the country.

The main complaint is the lengthy process and red tape which applicants must go through before a final decision is rendered. First is the initial application with numerous forms and medical reports to assess eligibility. Apparently almost everyone is now rejected at this initial level in keeping with a decision over the last few years to apply the definition of severe and prolonged disability more strictly for eligibility purposes, and Bill C-2 would put further restrictions on eligibility.

Following a rejection at the first level there is an appeal by way of a request for reconsideration which must be filed with the minister within 90 days. Then there is a second level of appeal to an independent, note the word independent, review tribunal. This must be filed within 90 days but may be extended at the discretion of the minister. Finally, applicants or the minister may appeal a decision of the review tribunal to the pension appeals board within another 90 days. Claimants dissatisfied with the board's decision may then ask for a reconsideration within 90 days but this would entail more waiting and would likely be to no avail.

The administrative procedures and hearings involved in all of these are long. It is not uncommon to have applicants waiting for years before a final decision is rendered, sometimes with sad consequences.

A constituent applied four years ago and has since developed terminal cancer. Last month he was told his application had been approved but even now it appears that the department is backtracking and wants more clarification on a range of items. This person is suffering with terminal cancer and is still unable to get disability benefits.

My constituency assistant had a meeting with two CPP officials last Thursday. He was informed that there has been an attempt, which started last June, to speed up the process by regionalizing the services somewhat. However there is still a backlog at the pension appeals board level. The board is backlogged and is unable to hear cases expeditiously.

Figures that we have obtained from Human Resources Development Canada suggest a trend starting in 1995 to reject most of the applications for CPP disability. In 1993 they approved 69%. This was down to 44% in 1995 and sank to 33% in 1996. I am told that Nova Scotia has the highest per capita CPP disability claimants. If that is the case, this trend of rejecting applications is particularly harsh in our province.

A major problem with this program is that the minister can and often does automatically appeal any decision below the appeals board level. When the independent review tribunal has ruled in favour of an applicant the minister can appeal that decision, and the matter becomes bogged down in a time consuming process. No doubt the primary reason for this tactic is to save money, but this is being achieved on the backs of the disabled.

Another troubling issue is that recipients of CPP disability benefits who try to work are penalized. Benefits are withdrawn if they work for over three months. This is most discouraging to the disabled who usually have to go through considerable personal sacrifices to supplement meagre benefits with a meagre income. The system should be working to improve the lives of the disabled, not to penalize them for trying to seek a more active and productive life.

In conclusion, we cannot support Bill C-2 as it does nothing to correct the problems that are currently experienced, but rather introduces measures to make life even more difficult for low wage workers, women, young people, seniors and the disabled.

I wish to move a subamendment. I move:

That the amendment be modified by inserting after the words “young Canadians” the following: “and more particularly, to women, the disabled, those eligible for survivors' benefits, and low income Canadians”.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

The amendment is in order. Debate is on the subamendment.

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi, QC]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to speak on Bill C-2, which will have an impact on the future of Canadians.

In keeping with tradition, I would like to thank the electors of Abitibi who put their trust in me for the next four years.

I represent the largest riding in the ten provinces of Canada. It covers an area of over 802 square kilometres and has a population of 92,000. To give you an idea of its size, it is equivalent to more than half the province of Quebec. There are four PQ members of the National Assembly doing the same work I am as a federal MP. In other words, in the riding of Abitibi, there are four provincial MNAs and that costs four times as much.

To get back to the bill, in compliance with the law, changes to the Canada pension plan must be approved by at least two thirds of the provinces representing two thirds of the country's population. This requirement has been met.

This bill represents a significant step toward preserving, as we said we would, the Canadian income and retirement system. The changes will ensure the plan's viability over the long term while making it fairer and more affordable for future generations of Canadians.

They recognize that the Canada pension plan is fundamental to the public pension system. The proposed changes will strengthen our system to permit it to continue to provide Canadians with the opportunity to create for themselves new and sufficient retirement income.

To ensure the future of the Canada pension plan for all Canadians, last February the federal and provincial governments agreed on changes to the plan to ensure its long term financial viability, while making it more fair and more affordable for future generations.

The proposed changes have the support of the federal government and the provinces of Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Quebec especially, Ontario, Manitoba and Alberta.

However I must point out that Quebec administers a plan which parallels the Canada pension plan, that is, the Quebec pension plan. The Government of Quebec, through the Hon. Lucien Bouchard, recently announced amendments to the Quebec pension plan comparable to the proposed changes to the CPP, with the result that premiums will be the same.

Let us take a look at this new investment policy. There are approximately two years' worth of benefits in the CPP at the present time. The assets not immediately required to pay benefits are placed in non-negotiable instruments issued by the provinces. The provinces pay interest on these loans at the rate of long-term federal government bonds, as set at the time they were issued.

Greater capitalization of the CPP will result in significant growth of the assets from approximately two years of benefits to four or five years of benefits over the next twenty years. A new investment policy is necessary to get the best return possible in the interests of contributors. A higher return on the plan's assets will help hold the line on increases in premiums.

The ministers of all provinces, including Quebec, agreed on the following measures. The assets of the CPP will be invested in a diversified portfolio of instruments in the best interests of the contributors and beneficiaries. This new policy is consistent with that of most other pension funds in Canada, and in particular with that of the Quebec pension plan.

The assets will be managed in a professional manner, independent of governments, by an investment board, which will periodically report to the public and to the various governments on its activities.

Finally, with respect to investments, the board will be subject to rules similar to those applying to other pension funds in Canada.

I noticed that schedule II contains a comparison of existing CPP provisions and the proposed changes. This is something we should also mention: early retirement, from age 60, no change; normal retirement, at 65, no change; late retirement, up to 70 years of age, no change. There is no change in the new bill to the maximum annual earnings with pension entitlement, indexed to salary.

There will be no change to the ceiling for the combined survivor's and pension benefit in the new bill. All benefits, except death benefits, are now fully indexed. There will be no changes.

There are several stages to go through still. The bill complies with the terms and conditions agreed upon with the provinces in February regarding such things as a move toward fuller funding, with the new investment policy, changes to the formula for calculating certain benefits and a tightening of the administration of benefits.

It is always important to keep our people informed of what goes on in Parliament.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, for the first time in our history a whole generation of Canadians is unsure that it will be able to enjoy the same quality of life that their parents did.

Many Canadians worry that some of our most fundamental institutions and values, such as health care and the Canada pension plan, might not be there for them and their families when they need it.

Canadians know that they can no longer count on the federal government for everything. There was a time when they did, no matter which political party was there. We all know that. Everybody was looking for the government to take care of them, and the political parties were only too happy to promise everything. Canadians have every right to expect the federal government to set the right priorities and policies, and to chart the right course to achieve what they need for the future.

We need an innovative, realistic plan that sets new priorities for government as part of a long-term vision for our future. One of these priorities is security of retirement for all Canadians, and more especially, the restoration of the Canada pension plan.

Canadians are looking for leaders that are committed to maintaining the CPP as a central component of our social safety net. They want obligations of the CPP to be clearly defined. They want it to be put on a sound financial footing, and they want it to be managed efficiently now and in the future.

What is wrong with the CPP? For one thing, it is bordering on bankruptcy. The rapid aging of our population is one of the main reasons. I know that because they just have to take a look at my grey hair. My hon. friend across the way might have a little dye in his—I am not sure—but I think he is almost as grey as I am.

Today, for every person of retirement age there are five persons of working age. In 20 years, there will be one person of retirement age for every four persons of working age. When today's youth retire 40 years from now, that ratio will be just one to three. We have young pages sitting here. We want to make sure that they have a good retirement pension plan.

In 30 years, the average age of Canadians will be higher than the present average age of the population of Florida, with no corresponding adjustment in temperature.

A lower birth rate and increased life expectancy along with a sharp rise in disability claims also puts new stress on the CPP. The CPP has also been jeopardized by inadequate contribution levels and inefficient plan management as a consequence of faulty legislation.

CPP funds, for instance, have been lent to the provinces at the rate Ottawa pays on its 20-year bonds. This is less than what the provinces pay other bond holders. It is also less than what private sector plans earn. No wonder Canadians think the government cannot add.

The CPP must be changed now if it is to provide pensions in the future. Older Canadians have earned the right to a secure retirement. Middle class workers cannot afford to pay more, and I know that because I had a young mother come to me just last week. She came with her husband and said “It will cost us $700 more, Mrs. Wayne. We have two children. We are trying to save every month for their education. We don't want any handouts but we can't afford that $700 more”.

Younger Canadians want the CPP to be there when they need it, and they expect it to be flexible. They expect government to plan for the future in the same way Canadians plan for their future.

How are some proposing to preserve the CPP? The Liberal plan to fix the CPP is an $11 billion tax hike on working Canadians and employers over the next six years. This is coupled with already punitively high EI levels which the Minister of Finance has refused to lower, despite a substantially high fund surplus. Such a traumatic tax grab would have a devastating affect on job creation. This is an attack on the middle class taxpayers, families and small businesses.

The Reform's plan is even simpler. Just scrap it and replace the CPP with super RRSPs. That is even more scary when we remember that at its last convention the Reform Party advocated eliminating the RRSP plan. I do not know whether it has any plan at all?

Under the Reform Party's plan Canadians would be given recognition bonds to reflect the CPP credits they have already earned. This approach would leave young Canadians paying for the CPP benefits of their grandparents, for the recognition bonds due to their parents and for their own retirement savings. On top of all of that, it fails to provide any numbers as to how it will pay for its proposals. It reneges on a commitment to Canadians made by successive governments. It ignores the profound attachment that Canadians have for this social program in favour of an extreme ideological position.

Individuals also have to assume the risk of inflation in their investment decisions under the Reform Party's plan. The disability coverage now included in the CPP would be eliminated.

Both the Liberal Party and Reform Party solutions are shortsighted and self-defeating. The security, affordability and stability of the CPP are an integral part of the Progressive Conservative Party's plan to address the economic and social insecurity felt by so many Canadians.

We set out three key benchmarks to do so. Make the CPP self-financing, offset premium increases with tax cuts and encourage more RRSP savings. How would we meet these objectives? We would increase CPP contribution rates to levels adequate to ensure the long-term viability of the plan. However, these increased contributions would be offset by the substantial reductions of personal income tax rates and EI premiums. This means putting more money into the plan without asking Canadians to pick up the tab and without creating more threats to job creation. We would also make provisions to finance the extra cost per year of seniors benefits resulting from demographic change.

Canadians also need to know that never again will their pension funds be mismanaged the way they have been in the past. They deserve a greater return on their investment. To ensure this we would transfer all CPP funds to a separately managed Canada pension trust as is already done in Quebec. We would structure the Canada pension trust to be completely independent of the government of the day. We would select the Canada trustees on a non-partisan basis, recruiting experts in the financial business and actuarial community in consultation with the provinces.

The mandate of the Canada pension trust and its trustees would be to advise the government on required contribution levels and to select the best private managers acceptable to the industry to invest the funds growing surplus to secure long-term returns.

It is most important that we guarantee all our young people today, not just the ones who are sitting in the House, but those across the country that there will be a retirement plan, a Canada pension plan for them. It is up to each and every one of us in the House to make sure that this happens. Now it is our generation's turn to become nation builders. Part of that responsibility is to ensure that Canadians of all ages and all circumstances can count on a secure retirement.

I look forward to debating this issue in the future because this must take place.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Mr. Speaker, congratulations on your selection as Speaker. We hope all members of the House will co-operate with you. I know you are doing a very fine job with it.

I am from the Miramichi. This is my first speech since the new Parliament began. Today we in the Miramichi have heard of the resignation of our premier. His absence from New Brunswick and the political scene in Canada is certainly going to be a great loss for all of us as Canadians. I want to pay tribute to the many years that Frank spent, some 15 years, representing Miramichi, and for the past 10 years as premier of the province of New Brunswick.

Over that period of time he had to exert a good deal of effort looking at the pension funds in the province of New Brunswick and trying to find some solutions to their funding for future generations.

Today as we consider the Canada pension plan, my constituents and Canadians in general would be shocked to hear some of the statements that are being made by members opposite. I have heard very few complaints about the plan not being effective. I have heard very few concerns about people not wanting to participate in the plan. It is looked upon as a very important part of that great income security system that the Liberal Party and Liberal governments have made for this country over the past several generations.

Today in Canada there are approximately five million Canadians who in one way or another are receiving payments from the Canada pension plan. We have approximately 3.7 million plus another 1.2 million under the Quebec pension plan. Of that group some 2.4 million Canadians and 800,000 under the Quebec plan are receiving retirement benefits. In the disability portion of the plan we have some 300,000 Canadians in other provinces along with another 50,000 people in the province of Quebec.

It is a good plan. However, in the next few years the plan will need more money to support future Canadians as they require the benefits from it.

When I hear of the demands of the opposition that we should move away from a Canada pension plan and toward a system of RRSPs I have to remind the House that RRSPs do not have the great benefits that are shared by those who participate in the Canada pension plan.

Today contributions to the plan are some 5.85% shared by employees and employers. However, future contributions will eventually reach some 9.9% to be shared by those two groups.

The CPP does not only include retirement. It also includes a great number of other benefits to the Canadian people. Those who pay into the plan are protected against disability. Those who pay into the plan have their spouses protected in case of death or disability. Those who participate in the plan have their children protected until they either finish school or if they continue in school, until they are 25 years of age.

This plan is essential and is regarded as being essential by most Canadians. It is a form of income security. There is a basic understanding among the Canadian workforce that workers will be able to receive benefits if they become sick for an extended period of time, if they become injured and they cannot work or if they eventually are not able to participate for other given reasons.

It is very important for us to share in the great benefits the economy of this nation has. We must make sure as members of Parliament that we indicate to Canadians that we are willing to participate in a program where all Canadians can share in the benefits of our country.

We know there are private plans out there. When the committee looks at the Canada pension plan bill it realizes that it has to look at some of the concerns that are being expressed here today.

The member for Saint John, for example, recommended that we should look in terms of maybe trying to reduce income tax as we increase Canada pension benefits. Certainly this might be a fact that could be considered by our Minister of Finance.

We might also look at how various calculations are made. It is certainly important that we look at how the plan will affect us in the future and how the calculations will try to make sure that we get the optimum level of interest in terms of where that plan is invested.

I think it is good that we are moving away from the system whereby the funds were available to the provinces at very low interest rates. It certainly will give a better return to the investment. We have an investment of nearly $40 billion and probably through a better system of investing on the open market the plan can gain more money for future people involved with Canada pensions.

I would hope, in terms of the eventual outcome, as it goes to committee we can look at the many suggestions that are being made to the House today, that we will eventually come up with a good system by which all Canadians can participate and by which all of us, in terms of being members of this Parliament, can ensure that Canadians are guaranteed a safe and secure pension plan that will apply to all workers in the country.

[John Reynolds, Reform, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this is the first opportunity I have had to speak since the election. I want to thank Herb Grubel who represented Howe Sound before me. I know Herb served this House very well in the one term he was here. He is now back at Simon Fraser University and working with the Fraser Institute. I know all members would like me to wish him well. I would like to, on behalf of all the constituents, thank him for the job he did while he was here.

I would also like to congratulate you, Mr. Speaker, on your re-election and the election of all the deputy Speakers. I was here 25 years ago making a speech in this House in 1972 as a Conservative member of Parliament. It is quite interesting to listen to the speeches in this debate. In 25 years some things do not change.

I thank the constituents of West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast for sending me back. As my youngest son said to me, that was a quarter of a century ago. It was before he was even born, but I have six other children who were already born. I am not sure they enjoyed my time when I was here before because it is a lot different when you are 30 years of age with five children and be a member of Parliament than it is when you are 55 years of age and you have all your family grown up.

I can thank my constituents for sending me here. I know I am going to enjoy this session. I am certainly enjoying being a Reform member of Parliament. When I look back and read the first speech I ever made in this House, I could say most of the same things today. A lot of things do not change.

Let us look at the Canada pension plan. I heard my good friend, the member of the Tory party, speaking a couple of times before me talking about what the Tories would do and I listened to what the Liberals would do, yet this plan is $560 billion in debt. Some things just do not change. We have a major debt in this country and we have a pension plan that is not working very well in this country.

I think the people in this country, as this debate goes along, are going to start really wanting to know what is happening with the Canada pension plan. Where are they going to be when they want to retire? I think it is pretty scary. It is scary when I hear Liberal members on the other side. I heard a member from the Conservative Party talking about how Reform wanted to cancel the RRSP. The election is over. They should get that nonsense out of their heads. This party never said it was going to cancel RRSPs. Our plan for the Canada pension plan is one that should be listened to by the Canadian people and should be listened to by all sides of this House because it makes a lot of common sense.

I heard a member on the other side the other day talking about Bre-X because our plan would involve using the private sector. What would happen to all these poor pensioners if they had been involved in Bre-X? Even the member does not know how pension plans invest their money or it is just a straight scare tactic. There are bad companies every year in the stock market.

Companies that invest in the stock market do not just invest in one company. The Ontario teacher's pension plan in 1995 was worth $25 billion, in 1996 $35 billion and in April 1996 was up to $41 billion. It probably had shares in Bre-X. Most Canadian pension plans did. It was on the Toronto stock exchange. Thank God it was not a BSE stock or we on the west coast would have taken all the heat for that one.

Bre-X was a disaster as far as a stock is concerned. But all the pension plans went up last year even with the Bre-X situation. If we look at the average return, the Ontario teacher's pension plan has earned 16.7% in 1997 so far and over four years it averaged 12.1%. That is not a bad return. The overall performance in the private sector is 8% to 10% but the teacher's plan is 16.7% and the CPP, 2%. By the year 2000 it will be 1.8%. How can we expect any Canadian to think they can retire on a pension plan that is going to give them 1.8% to 2%?

The private sector in this country does a good job. Why are we here not more concerned about a government that wants us to do a CPP that will only give a small amount of money? The CPP is going to have $10 billion annually by the year 2003. It is a tax grab. It is like the EI. There will be a few billion in the bank. Where is going to come from? It will come from the people who work, the people who want a fair pension when they retire. Every member in the House knows what they think about our pension plan. This plan does not come anywhere close. Most guys who retired after the last election get as much in a month as these people will get in a year with this plan.

Even the Quebec pension plan is better managed than the CPP. It is a province that has its own pension plan and it has done a better job than the federal government. Maybe my province of British Columbia should look at opting out the CPP and getting its own pension plan. Maybe it could do a better job.

Individual premiums are going to increase from $945 to $1,645 per year, and this is what the average Canadian has to think about. To the average taxpayer that is a lot of money. We are talking about $700.

A lot of people are probably a bit jaded about the money, but to the average constituent $700 is a lot of money. If there are two people working that is $1,400, over $100 a month. We in the House have to start thinking about the average Canadian and not relating to our pension plan which is what we are doing overall.

What are average Canadians going to do when they have to put out this extra money? How are they going to look after their families? We in the House do not seem to think much about that.

We are asking the young people to assume a national debt of $600 billion and now we are asking them to pay the CPP debt at the same time. Young people in this country are getting very frustrated because they cannot get ahead. They want a better pension plan and a better tax system. We all know that. The debate in this House in this session is the lead off to why we are going to see a revolution in this country to change the tax system. The CPP is just going to be the start. People are fed up paying more and more money to the government for fewer services.

The Liberal minister said they are going to get a better return on investment by setting up a new CPP investment board appointed by cabinet. Even the Liberals laugh at that because they know. At least they could bring it to the House or to committee so we could all look at where it was going.

We have some of the best companies in the world here in Canada. Some American companies have been bought out because they have been very successful in the mutual fund business. Why are we not using those companies just we are suggesting? Use the companies in Canada to help us invest the CPP. Put it right into the private sector which has done well. A politically driven board is not going to solve the CPP problems in the country.

The CPP needs an overall review. It was a nice thought when it was started because we all wanted a pension plan. But it has not worked and people cannot live on $8,844 per year. Anybody who thinks they can is not looking at reality.

Modern day pension plans are defined contribution plans. These take many forms, but in these plans the contributor personally owns the contribution and the accrued growth. That is what is extremely important and the public should remember that, defined contribution plans.

My party is looking at this type of plan to help Canadians get a plan which will give them something they can retire on.

The government is asking employees and employers to increase their CPP contributions. That will hurt small business. If we took a portion of that money and put it into a private sector plan, instead of retiring on $8,000 a year the numbers could get up to $24,000, $30,000 or $40,000 based on what people have been investing in mutual funds over the last 100 years since they have been available.

Any member of the House who has RRSPs in a mutual fund company will know that they have grown a lot more than the CPP in the last few years. Why do we not give Canadians the chance to have their individual account where they can see the money going in every month and receive a statement every month showing the growth in the plan, which would be protected by both the government and the private sector?

If the government does not believe in that it does not believe in this country. It does not believe in the private sector which runs this country. That is a shame.

Canadians have to take some responsibility for their own plans and the way to do that is by allowing them to participate.

I want to talk about the Ontario teachers pension plan and other major pension plans in the country. Those plans are doing better than the government pension plan. They are being run by the private sector. Even the most socialistic of groups that have a pension plan run by the private sector is doing better than it would with the CPP.

I implore the government to listen to what is being said in the House. Let us look at the pension plan which the Reform Party is recommending to Canada. Let us ensure that this debate goes on long enough so that Canadian people will know that this plan is the second biggest tax grab in our country's history.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, we have been unable to reach an agreement pursuant to Standing Order 78(1) or 78(2) with respect to proceedings at the second reading stage of Bill C-2, an act to establish the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board and to amend the Canada Pension Plan and the Old Age Security Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 78(3), I give notice that, at the next sitting of the House, I will be moving a motion for the purpose of allotting a specified number of days or hours for the consideration and disposal of proceedings at that stage.

[Some hon. members]

Shame, shame.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-2, an act to establish the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board and to amend the Canada Pension Plan and the Old Age Security Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee; and of the amendment and the amendment to the amendment.