Mr. Speaker, right now we are having a rather lengthy discussion about Group No. 6 amendments.
The effect of these amendments is pretty much as follows: to increase the level of benefits given in a fair number of areas, better benefits for the disabled, better benefits for survivors, mostly women, better benefits period. This is something that we would all like to see happen.
We would all want to see everyone in our country, probably everyone in the world, be very comfortable in their retirement and indeed throughout their whole lives. It would be wonderful if we could generously protect everyone and even make sure they have the luxuries of life. The thought, the intention behind these amendments is something we would all agree with.
Unfortunately, as we all learn from the time we are young, our wants come at a cost. When we purchase something, we must have money to do that. The reasonable question for Canadians is what level of benefits can we afford. Are we willing to pay for them? This notion that somehow “the government” is going to pay for it is simply a myth. The government is us. It is taxi drivers, hairdressers, people who are working hard every single day, paying their money into these programs and funding the benefits that come out of them.
Here we have amendments saying “We want more”. The question is how much can we afford? We have to remember, and I am sure the members who proposed these motions have not forgotten, that already this program is $600 billion in the hole. Six hundred billion dollars is a fair chunk of change. There is about two years worth of payments only lying around to the pay the benefits that have already been promised. Yet we now have a demand for more benefits where we have almost no money to pay the ones we have got already and some members are saying “More, more, more”.
We have no money available to pay for the ones we have. I guess the question has to be asked: where is the money going to come from?
There are two amendments that are possibly talking about where the money is coming from. They are kind of an interesting mix. One amendment is to uncap the ceiling on earnings on which people must pay benefits. That would make higher income earners pay more into the program than lower income earners.
The other amendment would say that premiums must be based on income and in a sense that is the same thing. If a person earns less, they pay less premium and if they earn more, they pay more premium.
With all respect to the members, we have to decide, and I think this might be a good time, whether this is really a pension plan or whether it is a social program, whether it is an income redistribution program.
If it is just an income redistribution program, let us not mislead the Canadian public by saying that it is a pension plan. Contributions are paid into a pension. They are invested and everyone benefits from that. That is a pension plan.
I have never heard of a pension plan where some people pay some money in and some people pay more money in and, then, at the end of the day some people get more out and some people get less. That is not a pension plan. That is an income redistribution program. It is a social program. It is entirely different.
If we are to say that this is a social program let us be honest about. I actually agree it has been run like a social program in the past. Benefits have been paid to people who have not put in sufficient investment to get them out.
Investment will be put into the plan by people who will not get the value of their investment out. Then let us not call it a pension plan. It is a fiction if we operate it this way and pretend it is a pension plan. It is not a pension plan. There is no pension plan in the world that operates in this way.
If this is a social program where we take from the rich and give to the poor let us at least be honest about it. That is exactly what the majority of the amendments are proposing.
I for one think that if we are to run a pension plan let us run a pension plan. If we are to help the poor and disadvantaged with retirement security, there are other instruments in society to do that. We should get on with that. Let us not subvert or convert a pension program for the purposes that are being talked about here.
I notice the objectives of managing the fund keep coming up. NDP members say that we have to use it for other objectives to build infrastructure and help the economy. If this is actually a pension program it belongs to the people who made investments. Their sole purpose is to get a pension out.
I dare say members of the New Democratic Party would not go to CUPW or any other union and say “By the way, the pension moneys you pay into your union pension fund should be available to the provinces to use for infrastructure and for economic development”. They would get pretty short shrift if they went to union members and said the pension funds should be used for broader objectives. Yet they are saying to Canadians that their pension investment should be used for other good works and to help economic development in the provinces when necessary.
That totally flies in the face of logic, good management and the expectations of Canadians. I do not see any logic, good sense or proper management in the proposals. The one proposal I support is to make sure that the year's basic exemption continues to be tied to inflation.
As other members have pointed out the year's basic exemption, the minimum amount of money that does not require a premium to be paid, started out at $400. We can imagine if it was frozen at $400 and the government went to workers and said “Aren't you lucky you do not have to pay premiums on your first $400 of earnings?” The workers would say “Whoop-de-doo, big deal”. Because of inflation the basic exemption has had to rise to $3,500. After a few years, if we do not tie this to inflation, $3,500 will be worth to workers exactly what $400 is today, nothing.
This is a very sneaky way of taking even more premium from low income people who can least afford it. I think it is dishonest. I think it is unwarranted. It certainly flies in the face of the stated intention of having a year's basic exemption in the first place.
I would certainly urge the government to get rid of taxation by stealth. If it is to take money from people, it should at least be done in an honest and forthright way.
We would like to increase benefits for everybody. I certainly would like to retire on a much bigger pension than I expect I will, having given up my MP pension. I did not think it was fair in light of what other Canadians can expect.
The fact of the matter is that we are already billions and billions of dollars in debt because of what we have promised. To promise more would be irresponsible and totally unrealistic.