House of Commons Hansard #27 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was crtc.

Topics

Telecommunications ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Reform

Werner Schmidt Reform Kelowna, BC

Madam Speaker, I picked up a key phrase the hon. member opposite mentioned. He said we should let the industry determine. That is exactly right. Let the industry come into it rather than the government. I think he really believes that and that is why he said it.

That is not what the bill says. I wish the bill would say that. If he could prove to me that the bill says that I would wholeheartedly agree with him. The issue he has raised is the right one.

I would like to mention, because it is brand new, that he said the lesson has been learned and the CRTC knows it. Let me focus on what was said in the 1997-98 estimates that we are now working under. The mission statement reads:

For communication in the public interest we aim to help Canadians better understand how their values and diversity shape Canada's unique personality in the world. We do so by regulating our broadcasting and telecommunications industries in open, flexible ways to foster creative freedom and strengthen the prosperity of all our citizens.

Let us now read the mandate of the CRTC and compare the two statements. The mandate reads:

The CRTC is vested with the authority to license, regulate and supervise all broadcasting undertakings within Canada and to regulate telecommunications commentaries that fall under federal jurisdiction.

It goes on. Is this not interesting? It has made a regulatory body its mandate but its mission is to help Canadians better understand their values and diversity and to have open, flexible ways to foster creative freedom and strengthen the prosperity of all our citizens.

It looks to me as if the regulation on the one hand and the mission on the other, if not in contradiction are certainly running in different directions.

If the lesson has been learned the CRTC should demonstrate it. It has been known for years that the CRTC has not been the facilitator of private enterprise and competition but rather the protector of monopolistic interests.

I am glad to see a shift here. I think it is good. I have raised the competitive issue before. I have talked about convergence before. That is a good idea. There are vestiges in the new provision for licensing ability that move the CRTC back further into the regulation. I think it is a backward move into the future.

Telecommunications ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre De Savoye Bloc Portneuf, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for our colleague, the Reform Party telecommunications critic.

There is much talk in this bill about corporations. We have mentioned equipment manufacturers, providers of telephone services, cable distributors. We have also mentioned the consumer, who sees his bill regularly hiked up, but there is no mention of the person who is entitled to privacy. We do not mention the protection of personal information. Yet that is the flip side of the coin.

Only one side of the coin is being talked about now, allowing the industry to expand worldwide through deregulation. The flip side of the coin: what are the consequences or the potential ill effects for citizens whose personal information can be released all over the planet?

We know that the federal government has no legislation that really protects personal information once it is in the hands of private business.

I am therefore asking the Reform Party critic this question. What does the Reform Party recommend for protecting private information, identifying information, what does it have in mind for protecting the public from the misuse by businesses of information on each and every one of us?

Telecommunications ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Reform

Werner Schmidt Reform Kelowna, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a superb question, one that is not addressed in this bill or in any other bill.

If he is asking for my personal opinion, I think that is one of the crying needs that must be addressed in the House as the electronics and telecommunications industry develops. We must guarantee the integrity, the privacy, the security of personal information and confidential information of a business nature. As we go to electronic banking, transferring funds from one organization to another via electronic means, the security of that information is paramount.

The time is ripe to bring forward that kind of legislation. In fact we should do it tomorrow morning.

I thank the hon. member for the question. I certainly support the idea.

Telecommunications ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Walt Lastewka Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Speaker, I meant to address the privacy section in an earlier question but unfortunately the member walked out and I was unable to ask it.

It has been said in the House before that privacy legislation is something the government is concerned with. We are now studying it, trying to get a simple, flexible privacy of information legislation. Work is being done not only with the government but with the provinces to get as many provinces onside to come up with simple legislation to recommend to the House.

When the public consultations are completed I hope hon. members will be able to add to the government's consultations on the privacy section of the legislation that will be introduced in the House in due time.

I thank the hon. member for raising it. I am sure we will be debating it in committee.

Telecommunications ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Reform

Werner Schmidt Reform Kelowna, BC

Mr. Speaker, when the government brings that legislation forward I hope it will have consulted widely, honestly and with integrity, and listened very much to the experience of the privacy commissioner over the last number of years. He has a lot of good advice to give us all.

The House resumed from November 3 consideration of the motion.

Dna Identification ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the referral to committee before second reading of Bill C-3.

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Division No. 22Government Orders

6 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the motion carried.

Division No. 22Government Orders

6 p.m.

Reform

John Duncan Reform Vancouver Island North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I was not here when the vote was called, but had I been here I would have voted with my caucus.

(Motion agreed to and bill referred to a committee)

Division No. 22Government Orders

6 p.m.

The Speaker

It being 6 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Svend Robinson NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

moved:

That a special committee be appointed, pursuant to Standing Order 68(4)(b), to review the provisions of the Criminal Code dealing with euthanasia and physician assisted suicide and that the committee be instructed to prepare and bring in a bill, in accordance with Standing Order 68(5).

Mr. Speaker, on February 12, 1994 my friend Sue Rodriguez died at her home in Sidney, British Columbia. She died with the assistance of a courageous and understanding doctor who risked a term of life imprisonment for breaking the law, section 241 of the Criminal Code of Canada.

As many members of this House will know, Sue Rodriguez had fought with incredible dignity, strength and courage, to the Supreme Court of Canada ultimately, to change this law. She appeared before the House of Commons justice committee. She made a whole nation aware of this profoundly important issue.

While she may have lost ultimately by the narrowest possible margin of five to four at the Supreme Court of Canada, for many of us it was the words of dissenting Justice Peter Cory that resonated most powerfully:

The life of an individual must include dying. Dying is the final act in the drama of life. The right to die with dignity should be as well protected as is any other aspect of the right to life. State prohibitions that would force a dreadful, painful death on a rational but incapacitated terminally ill patient are an affront to human dignity.

While there may have been division in the Supreme Court of Canada, there was unanimity on one issue, that it was ultimately up to the House of Commons, the elected House of the people of Canada, to make a decision as to what the law should or should not state on this profoundly important issue. All the judges who considered this issue were unanimous on that point, the Supreme Court of British Columbia, the B.C. Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada.

I note that prior to the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada, starting in 1991 a number of other members of Parliament had raised this issue in the House: Bob Wenman, late Conservative member of Parliament from British Columbia, my former colleague Ian Waddell and my current colleague from Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar.

Following the death of Sue Rodriguez in February 1994, within days of her death, both the prime minister and the then justice minister, currently the Minister of Health, promised that there would be a free vote in this House on this important issue. Four days later the justice minister said: “I am sure that doctors could tell us that a number of people right now are facing terminal illness who would want to have a clarification”. He went on to say: “We will have a free vote as soon as we possibly can”.

The Minister of Justice said, and I quote:

I can assure you that we will find a way to introduce something in the House that will not be theoretical and that will be significant. If that means proposing legislative changes, so be it.

He added:

We will not sit on this. We will do it as quickly as we can.

Almost four years later we have finally achieved that objective of ultimately this House's being able to have a free vote on the issue. In May 1994 it was the national convention of the federal Liberal Party that passed almost unanimously a resolution urging the government to allow a free vote on this important issue.

As well in the spring of 1994, again shortly after the death of Sue Rodriguez, the Senate established a special committee chaired by a very distinguished former senator, Joan Neiman. The committee reported in June 1995, after having held extensive right across the country.

I want to pay tribute to all members of that committee for their work. It was a very important committee and an excellent report called “Of Life and Death”.

Today MPs will have an opportunity following three hours of debate on my motion to vote on this issue and I thank my colleagues from all parties for the opportunity that we have been given for this vote, and it will be a free vote.

I want to explain very carefully and very precisely what this motion seeks to achieve. The motion does not set out the terms for new legislation. It calls for the establishment of a special committee of this House. Obviously it could be decided that the standing committee on justice may be a more appropriate forum, but in any event it calls for a committee of this House to review evidence, certainly not to redo all the work of the Senate committee, to review the findings, the evidence and the recommendations of that committee and then to make recommendations back to this House.

Those recommendations could be very broad or very narrow. As I said, the Senate committee has already done much of the work in this area. The Senate committee was unanimous on a number of recommendations, including the importance of support for palliative care, pain control, and looked at the issue of sedation practices, the so-called double effect, withholding and withdrawal of life sustaining treatment and advance directives. It was able to arrive at unanimous recommendations for changes in those areas of the law.

Senator Sharon Carstairs, one of the members of that committee, tabled a bill last year, Bill S-13, which was strongly supported by Dr. Wilbert Keon, another member of the Senate and one of Canada's foremost heart surgeons. That bill would have clarified the Criminal Code with respect to a couple of key elements. What it would have done was clarify the practice of providing treatment for the purpose of alleviating suffering that may shorten life. It would also recognize explicitly and clarify the circumstances in which withholding and withdrawal of treatment is legally acceptable.

It may be that is as far as this special committee of the House is prepared to go. I would hope that the committee would go further and recommend comprehensive changes to section 241 of the Criminal Code, those changes that were supported by four of the nine judges of the Supreme Court of Canada, three of the seven senators on the special Senate committee, one of whom was Dr. Keon, and a substantial majority of Canadians in every region of Canada who also support these changes.

The Leader of the Opposition has stated that if a government bill were to be presented to Parliament, and presumably that would apply to a private member's motion as well, permitting physician assisted suicide under the conditions which he had set out in his consultation with his constituents, he would vote for that bill. That was because when he surveyed his own constituents he found that something like 82% of those constituents supported this change.

I want in urging the House to change the law to pay tribute to the many dedicated groups and individuals working for this change in the law, including the Right to Die Society and John Hofsess, Dying with Dignity and Marilyn Seguin, groups like Goodbye, the Unitarian Church and many others.

I note as well the issue is being debated in other parts of the world. In fact today we will learn the results of a referendum in Oregon. Earlier in the Australia Northern Territory Premier Marshall Perron courageously fought to bring forward a bill, only to see it ultimately overturned by the national parliament.

Why is it that I believe that the current law is profoundly cruel and unjust and must be changed? Let me first make it very clear that this is not a debate about choosing between palliative care on the one hand and physician assisted suicide on the other. I strongly support the unanimous recommendations of the Senate committee on this issue, which talked about far more resources for palliative care programs, national guidelines and standards, training of health care professionals, an integrated approach to palliative care and more research into palliative care, especially pain control and symptom relief. All of those are fundamentally important.

The best palliative care in the world cannot respond in all circumstances to all suffering, indignity and anguish. I note the Canadian Palliative Care Association has acknowledged that. It pointed out that in something like 16% of cases of terminal illness, the patients must be so sedated that they are “incapable of meaningful interaction with their families”.

There were some patients, some terminally ill people, Sue Rodriguez among them, who did not want to live or to die that way. I argue that in those narrow circumstances in which palliative care cannot respond to the suffering, the pain and the anguish the issue is one of choice, fundamentally of personal autonomy, whether we accept the right of competent adults to decide for themselves how their lives will end.

As it now stands under the current law, the choice is either to continue that suffering and anguish or to be sedated into a state of pharmaceutical oblivion, or to find a doctor who is prepared to break the law and risk life imprisonment, as in the case of Sue Rodriguez, or if you cannot find a doctor, as we have seen tragically in some circumstances, to leave your own country. We saw that with Austin Bastable in 1996. We saw that just recently with my constituent, Mr. Natverlal Thakore, this year. You should not have to leave your country and your family to die in peace.

I find it particularly cruel and barbarous that Mr. Tahkore had to leave his own country and his family to go to die in a motel room in Michigan with the help of a doctor he had probably never met. This is not acceptable.

It is time that we ended the hypocrisy in this area and admitted that assisted suicides are happening now. They are happening with no guidelines, with no review, with no safeguards whatsoever. Tragically, people are ending their own lives, committing suicide while still wanting to live longer. But they are doing it because they are afraid that when the moment comes at which they are totally incapacitated, they will not be able to seek the assistance they desire.

The B.C. Persons with AIDS Society pointed out that this is a very serious concern within that community as well. Its spokesman said in his evidence before the Senate committee that people with HIV disease choosing assisted death as a medical option are being forced as a result of current legislation to seek backstreet euthanasia. He talked about violent methods of euthanasia such as heroin overdoses, razor blades, guns and suffocation using plastic bags.

B.C. social worker Russel Ogden has confirmed in his studies the widespread resort to assisted suicide among people dying of AIDS. The Ontario chief coroner has confirmed that many people are assisting in suicide in this province. Dr. Ted Boadway of the Ontario Medical Association stated at a Canadian Medical Association convention “Doctors are doing it entirely underground and entirely unrecognized, in great fear and anxiety”. One doctor talked about how in his words “you can make a person comfortable with 50 milligrams of Demerol and you can make a person very, very dead with 500 milligrams of Demerol”, and about giving a suffering, terminally ill patient a prescription for sleeping pills but instead of giving her the normal 12, he gave her 40 as she requested. It is happening now but in the shadows, behind closed doors with no safeguards. When people ask what about the slippery slope, those dangers are clearly already there.

Of course there must be strict safeguards in place. The Canadian Medical Association's committee on ethics made a number of recommendations, as did the Senate committee that studied this issue. These are some of the safeguards that have been recommended which I strongly support: the importance of a person's request; being informed, voluntary, enduring and free of any coercion; the importance of the physician ensuring the person is competent and not suffering from any disorder that impairs his or her ability to make the decision; exploring the reasons in detail in incurable illness and severe suffering; the physician not being compelled in any way to participate in euthanasia or assisted suicide and not in a position to gain in any way.

I will also respond briefly to some of the serious concerns that have been raised by people with disabilities and organizations representing people with disabilities, such as the Council of Canadians with Disabilities. They voiced very eloquently their fear that if legislation were brought in that in any way diminished the importance of their lives or devalued their lives, they would strongly oppose it. They are deeply concerned about some of the arguments they have heard around the Tracy Latimer decision.

I emphasize that what is being debated here is fundamentally different. What is being debated here is the right of a competent adult who is terminally or incurably ill to make that decision for himself or herself, not by another person, not by a doctor, not by relative, not by a parent but for himself or herself.

I quote from the B.C. Coalition of People with Disabilities that supports changes to this section of the Criminal Code. It states in its recommendation to the Senate “we support changes that would make it legal to assist in the suicide of adults who know and understand all of the support options available to them and who are physically unable to take their life without assistance”. I was pleased that the coalition intervened in support of Sue Rodriguez in her struggle before the courts.

Some of the most powerful arguments for change in the law come from the families and friends of those who have lost a loved one in terribly agonizing circumstances. Following the death of Sue Rodriguez, I received literally hundreds of incredibly moving letters. I will share a couple of examples.

I got a letter from the son of Quebec author and actor Doris Lussier. His son is Pierre Lussier. He said:

Papa, do not let the politicians, barbarians by any other name, tell me that your horrible cry of mortal pain on the eve of your death, even unconscious, when we were far from your room at the other end of the corridor, was a sign of comfort. I shared in the agony of a charming, joyful, cultivated, reasonable human being, whom I loved more than anyone in the world, with no possibility of releasing him from his suffering as he so often asked of me. He was a total advocate of civilized death.

I could read from many other letters. I could read the letter of a man who wrote to me about his daughter who was in agony most of the time. He said that her jaw would sometimes dislocate when she yawned. She could not move her bowels so her sister had to evacuate her manually every second day. Several huge bed sores developed which never healed. She tried to kill herself by refusing to eat. Finally she had a stroke which prevented her from using her communicator and she spent the last few years of her life in total isolation wailing dreadfully, pleading for an end to her suffering. That is no way to die.

One of the most difficult experiences I have had to live with has been the calls and letters I have received from people who plead with me to find a doctor to help them. I cannot respond to that, but what I can do is to plead with this House to ensure that the law is changed so that we have humanity and justice.

In closing, I want to appeal to all members of the House. Palliative care in and of itself is not enough. Sue Rodriguez had superb palliative care. Let an all-party committee hear from Canadians on all sides of this issue, review the evidence and recommendations of the Senate committee and then report back to the House with legislation to be voted on in a free vote.

It would be a tragic mistake to close the door at this stage to any further debate. Respected doctors like Dr. Keon, nurses and other health care workers, and most of all our own constituents, are asking that the law be, at the very least, clarified and hopefully changed to reflect humanity and justice.

In closing the debate on my previous bill in September 1994 I quoted the final words of my friend Sue Rodriguez and I want to honour her memory by doing so again today. She said:

I hope that my efforts will not have been in vain and that the Minister of Justice will introduce legislation into Parliament soon so that terminally ill people will have another option available, thereby permitting physician assisted suicide for the terminally ill.

May her courageous struggle and that of others who have made the same eloquent plea not be in vain.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Ahuntsic Québec

Liberal

Eleni Bakopanos LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I rise before the House today in response to the proposal moved by the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas that a special committee be appointed to review the provisions of the Criminal Code dealing with euthanasia and physician assisted suicide, and that the committee be instructed to prepare and bring in a bill.

As my colleagues in the House would no doubt agree, the subjects referred to in this motion raise very complex legal, moral and social issues that Canadians are increasingly concerned about, but remain clearly divided on.

A Montreal woman in a depressed state drowns her six-year-old son before attempting suicide. A Halifax doctor is charged with the death of a terminally ill cancer patient under her care. These are just two examples to illustrate the complexity of this issue.

The hon. member who moved the motion illustrated the human toll which this issue has taken on Canadian families. No one in this House would not be moved by these tragedies.

When we debate this subject we must examine questions ranging from the quality of medical care available to seriously ill and dying people to the moral questions involving a person's power to control his or her own life, and even the value of life itself.

Technological progress in recent decades has considerably improved our capacity to extend life and, in an aging society, the issues of care and treatment at the end of life take on ever greater importance.

Many individuals, professionals, organizations and associations have clearly expressed their concerns on this over the 16 months of hearings held by the Senate Special Committee on Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide. In June 1995, the committee tabled its report entitled “On Life and Death”.

The stated goals of the committee were to help the public to develop a better understanding of this very complex subject and to set the stage for a full and open national debate. The committee referred to its report as an initial step in the long process ahead for Canadians attempting to find solutions to the problems that it raises.

The issues raised by this motion, that is, euthanasia and assisted suicide, are profoundly controversial. It is clear that the special Senate committee was aware of this. I am sure we would all concur.

The Senate report raised a number of problems which must be carefully addressed. The committee had little difficulty reaching consensus on issues regarding medical and health care practices, such as developing national guidelines to address pain control and sedation, and the withholding or withdrawal of treatment. However, there were no such agreements among committee members when it came to dealing with the more difficult questions of euthanasia and physician assisted suicide.

Even in the case of the less controversial recommendations, I would suggest a great deal has yet to be done before we take any steps to consider amendments to the Criminal Code. Let me illustrate by way of example areas where further work is required.

Having heard and considered testimony from numerous health care professionals appearing individually or on behalf of numerous associations representing doctors, nurses and other professionals, the Senate committee report was unequivocal in its recommendations in chapters 3, 4 and 5 that urged the development and implementation of national guidelines and standards in a number of areas such as palliative care, pain control, sedation practices and the withholding and withdrawal of life-sustaining treatment.

These guidelines which seemingly have not yet been drafted, should help those who, every day, must make decisions or help others make decisions concerning palliative care and treatment.

Moveover, few Canadian provinces and territories have passed legislation on advance directives, generally known as living wills. Such legislation is important in order to recognize and support the participation of patients and their family in the decisions relating to medical care and treatment when they reach the end of their lives.

At such times, when critical decisions must be made, it is useful and less stressful for those involved to make these decisions if they know the patient's wishes.

Until this work is completed, I think it would be premature to look at how the Criminal Code should deal with these issues.

Referring to the motion before us, while it is clear that I am of the opinion we should not be considering any amendments to the Criminal Code at this time, and I stress at this time, I would also suggest that attempts to do so are fraught with difficulties even when one purports to deal with subject matter upon which there is apparent agreement.

A year ago Bill S-13, an act to amend the Criminal Code, protection of health care providers, was introduced in the Senate and was later the subject of second reading debate in that house. The purpose of that bill as stated by the hon. Senator Sharon Carstairs who introduced it was to implement the unanimous recommendations in chapters 4 and 5 of the Senate report dealing with pain control and the withholding and withdrawal of life-sustaining treatment.

Senator Carstairs took great care to point out that her bill did not touch the more controversial aspects of the Senate report, that is, euthanasia or assisted suicide. Yet that bill itself was the subject of controversy and was not fully supported by the senator's fellow members of the special committee who had initially supported the recommendations in the first report.

In conclusion I would argue that it is premature, as moved by the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas, to appoint a special committee when there has been in fact one that has studied the issue to review the provisions of the Criminal Code dealing with euthanasia and physician assisted suicide or to consider the possibility of bringing in a bill when, as the Senate report demonstrated, Canadians are much too divided on these issues.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Garry Breitkreuz Reform Yorkton—Melville, SK

Mr. Speaker, may I have the consent of the House to split my time with the member for Macleod.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is it agreed?

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Garry Breitkreuz Reform Yorkton—Melville, SK

Mr. Speaker, a special Senate committee on euthanasia and assisted suicide spent over a year, from February 1994 to June 1995, studying this issue. It published a 250 page report in June 1995.

The Senate committee held 86 meetings and heard from 242 witnesses representing 92 organizations. It received 24 written submissions, listened to 12 witnesses by teleconference from Holland and received literally thousands of letters from concerned Canadians. The special Senate committee cost taxpayers more than $250,000 not including the salaries of the senators and the staff assigned to the project.

The Senate committee recommended no changes to the Criminal Code offences for voluntary euthanasia, non-voluntary euthanasia and counselling suicide. The Senate committee only made two recommendations regarding the Criminal Code: that consideration be given for creation of a new murder offence called compassionate homicide; and that the Criminal Code be amended to explicitly recognize and to clarify the circumstances in which the withholding and withdrawal of life-sustaining treatment is legally acceptable.

A special Senate committee has already spent hundreds of hours, spent more than $250,000 and heard hundreds of witnesses, received thousands of letters and issued a 250 page report to the Senate in 1995. There is no need for the House of Commons committee to repeat this same process. Nor is there a need for taxpayers to shell out a few more hundred thousand dollars to do it all over again.

This motion presupposes that the special committee will agree that amendments to the Criminal Code are needed because the motion directs the committee to prepare and bring in a bill. If this motion is passed, it will require the special committee to introduce legislation even if the special committee's deliberations and debate and public opinion conclude otherwise.

The Criminal Code as it is currently worded provides crown prosecutors with a sufficient number of options when laying charges with respect to homicides. The changes recommended by the Senate committee are not the highest legislative priority for the general public. If a special committee is to be struck to draft any bill, Reformers say it should be a victims bill of rights. For these reasons, I cannot support this motion.

The motion proposed by the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas proposes to introduce a bill dealing with a very complex and emotional issue. Some Reformers feel this is a moral issue and should be handled using a process employed on issues such as abortion and capital punishment and on issues of personal conscience. We as Reform MPs follow a four step process to clearly state our views publicly and to ask our constituents to develop, to express and to debate their own views on the matter. Following that process, we seek the consensus of the constituency and support that constituency in Parliament.

For the record, here is my personal view on this issue. I believe in the inherent value of life and the need to protect the most vulnerable individuals in our society. While I respect every person's right to refuse medical treatment, I do not believe that any changes should be made to the Criminal Code offences of euthanasia, assisted suicide or counselling suicide.

However, I do support designating palliative care as a core service in the Canada Health Act and developing in co-operation with the provinces national guidelines to govern the provision of palliative care services, including research, counselling and education programs.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

Reform

Grant Hill Reform Macleod, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to participate in this debate as a clinician, as a GP, as a guy who dealt with people at the end of their lives, and as someone who did surgery. This has had a very significant impact on my life. I do this with humility, recognizing that the ending of a life is a significant and important issue.

I would like to make sure that those watching understand what euthanasia is not. Euthanasia is not withholding unwanted heroics. Euthanasia is not advanced directives. Euthanasia is not unplugging resuscitation equipment that is unwanted or useless.

Euthanasia is active help to aid a person commit suicide, or active aid to end a person's life. Asking a physician to participate in that goes against everything I was taught in medical school.

Proponents say, and in fairness I listen to their arguments very well, that if we had strict guidelines, the process of doctor assisted suicide would be rare. I do not believe that it is adequate to just listen to those arguments. A good debater can make those positions well. I believe it is much more instructive to look at jurisdictions where this has been tried.

Holland of course is probably the best jurisdiction. I am taking my information today from a fairly new publication. It is the Canadian Family Physician for those who would like to research this for themselves, the February 1997 issue in which the Dutch experience was looked at scientifically.

Holland has a total population of 15 million, just about half of Canada's total population. The data that I am discussing today is from general practitioners just like me, doctors who see a broad part of family existence. The Dutch experience is as follows.

I spoke of criteria that would be used by the proponents. In Holland the criteria are as follows. A request for euthanasia must be voluntary. It must be well informed. It must be persistent. It cannot just be casual. There must be intolerable or hopeless suffering. There must be consultation with a second doctor so that one doctor would not make the decision in isolation. Finally, there must be a report to the authorities, a report to the coroner.

How rare is euthanasia in Holland? This is just GPs. This is not palliative care or surgeons that I am talking about. GPs permit about 2,000 cases of euthanasia per year. The most interesting thing about this scientific data is how often were the criteria followed. It is quite remarkable to find that about 180 patients per year were euthanized without their personal permission. These were individuals who could have given their permission. It is quite surprising.

If we look at all doctors in Holland, substantially more than just the GPs, the numbers are even worse. This is from 1990. For those who would like to research this data themselves, it comes from the Remelink study done in 1991 by a justice in Holland.

For all doctors in Holland in 1990, 2,700 people were euthanized according to the coroners' records. This is following the criteria. But 1,040 were killed involuntarily by all doctors and not reported. Even worse, 8,100 were killed by deliberately using pain medication.

Here we have in a country half as populated as Canada, over 10,000 people euthanized in one year when only 2,700 were reported.

In Holland doctors have taken over end of life decisions. This has not become an empowering thing for the patient. I would conclude by saying giving the power of life to physicians is bad public policy.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

6:40 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, we are dealing here with an extremely serious matter that must be analyzed in the greatest possible detail. This is an issue that has been discussed for a long time.

I recall very clearly that during the 35th Parliament, this issue was raised several times by the member who tabled this motion and also by Michel Daviault, the Bloc Quebecois member for Ahuntsic. That member went over the issue in great detail, made observations and addressed questions to the government on several occasions on this matter.

Just to remind you once again that it is not the first time that we are dealing with this issue in this House, on June 8, 1995, in a press release, he stated: “It is important that members examine these issues that concern all Quebeckers and Canadians and make recommendations before the House of Commons is called upon to vote on such sensitive matters”.

At one time or another, the government will have to examine carefully this whole matter. With medical advances and given what is acceptable today, which may not have been acceptable yesterday and evolves over time, a responsible government, a government that wants to reflect the evolution of society, will have to get its act together and deal with this area of responsibility, this admittedly difficult issue.

I wish to take the opportunity to congratulate the member who tabled this motion. I know that it is an issue that he has been closely involved with. If there is a member in this House that can speak from experience, it is the member from Burnaby—Douglas. I believe also, however, that this issue must be considered as objectively as possible.

What I find interesting in his motion is the fact that it gives parliamentarians an opportunity to study this matter in a non-partisan manner, with the help of scientists, doctors and families who have lived through such situations, and also in the light of our respective convictions. This is an issue that has social, economic, religious and moral implications.

All sorts of factors come into play, but this motion gives the government an opportunity to examine the issue and to take a real look at what could be done to arrive at a situation acceptable to the majority of Canadians and Quebeckers.

The present context is not an easy one. Some will say that respect for life is being used as an excuse to outlaw killing. I think they are right; that the dignity of human beings is not diminished by suffering. Others, however, will say that the respect for life and the right to die with dignity are personal values and that only the individual who is ill may decide. Legislating euthanasia and assisted suicide therefore poses many ethical problems. I think a committee could give very serious consideration to these ethical and medical factors.

Some news stories have advanced our understanding of this new problem. There was the case of Nancy B., Sue Rodriguez, and the most recent, which is still in the headlines, the case of Robert Latimer, a father accused of ending his daughter's life for reasons everyone has heard about. As we heard on the news, the decision is now under appeal.

There have been different interpretations in the media. However, some extremely important issues have been raised. Yes, the subject must be looked at, but I think it is so important that a very exhaustive study will be required before a bill can be introduced. The issue must be submitted to the House, studied and reported on even before those who will sit on the committee can draft a bill.

It is a complex task for a committee to study a bill. I participated in the review of the Young Offenders Act; the issue was not a heart-wrenching one but I can tell you that after six months, we had not completed the study and we were still pondering many questions.

Euthanasia and assisted suicide are related issues. We can easily predict that studying these matters will take a long time. I would not want the committee to be burdened with the task of drafting a bill.

That is why, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will table an amendment to motion M-123. I would like to see a committee struck, a committee to examine the matter, to report to the House, and subsequently, after the public pressure and the societal debate that it will have triggered in a still more structured way—because this will be referred to the justice committee of the House of Commons, with the assistance of the hon. member who will be able to attend—there will be a report that the House will examine and study. I believe that the government across the way, giving it the benefit of the doubt as far as its responsibility is concerned, will be able to respond favourably to the report which would be tabled by the House committee.

For this reason, Mr. Speaker, I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting the word “64(4)( b )” and by substituting the word “105”, by deleting the words “to prepare and bring in a bill, in accordance with Standing Order 68(5)”, and by adding after the words “and that the Committee be instructed”, the words “to report to the House”.

All in all, this amendment is very legalistic, very much in lawyer's jargon, if I can put it that way, but it is aimed at striking a committee. The committee could examine the entire question in a very clear way, report back to the House, and then the government could follow up on it by bringing in a bill, which would be along the lines of the recommendations made by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

6:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The hon. member's amendment has been taken on reservation. We will report back in due course.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

6:50 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Greg Thompson Progressive Conservative Charlotte, NB

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to take part in the debate tonight. This is an example of the House working at its best, where there is reasoned and intelligent debate. Certainly we will not all agree with the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas, but who am I quoting when I say “We do not argue his right to stand up and debate the issue or argue his case. We certainly would not deny the member that?”

The debate reminds me of the abortion debate. I know there are at least a couple of members on this side of the House who were here during that debate in 1989. I was a member of Parliament at that time. I often say I am very fashionable because I am a recycled member of Parliament. I was here in a previous life in the 34th parliament and I spoke on that issue.

This reminds me of that debate. It was one of those issues that I do not think the government wanted to bring to the floor of the House of Commons. That was understandable. Obviously there were two sides to that debate as there are with this one. I think that is reflected in the supreme court rulings that have come down on cases like this one.

One of them is the Sue Rodriguez case the member for Burnaby—Douglas quoted. He was very much attached to that case and to Sue Rodriguez herself. I do not always agree with the member. Nor do you. Nor does the House. He took a very courageous stand in defence of his position.

Ms. Rodriguez died before that ruling came down but the fact that they ruled 5:4 on that case indicates that even the supreme court is divided on the issue.

Canadians are looking for parliament to give them guidance. It is incumbent on us to do that and to bring this issue before the House of Commons for intelligent debate. I do not support the idea of spending money on a committee. The Senate did that. The Senate struck its committee. A couple of the members have mentioned the cost of that study. It becomes very expensive.

The secret to the whole process lies right here in the House of Commons. All members of Parliament are going to be here. They are paid to be here. They are paid to stand and present their positions. That is what I think should happen. An intelligent, reasonable, persuasive debate should take place in the House. At the end of the day we will have taken our respective positions and will have had our say.

I want to define euthanasia. I am sure there are people back home, including myself until I took the time to study the issue, who are a little confused on what the term means. I will quote from a fact book that was put together for me and other members a number of years ago by the Campaign Life Coalition.

This is basically a definition that Canadians should hear. The original Greek meaning of the term euthanasia is easy or good death. Over time this meaning has been lost so that today an acceptable definition of euthanasia would be to act or fail to act so as to cause the death of a human being for the purpose of relieving suffering.

The victim is usually though not exclusively a chronically or terminally ill patient, not necessarily imminently dying. The person performing the act of euthanasia is usually but not exclusively a health care professional. The participation of the medical profession in these acts has led to the use of the term medicalized killing.

As well as the understanding of the precise definition of euthanasia it is important to be clear on which medically based decisions at the end of life should never be classified as euthanasia. It is important that we listen to this carefully because allowing a terminally ill person at the last stages of life to die a natural death is not euthanasia.

Where the situation is medically hopeless, a decision not to provide or continue extraordinary or heroic measures where such no longer offer any hope for healing is ethical, legal and consistent with standard medical practice. It is important to remember that. More important, it is also consistent with thousands of years of religious belief and practice.

The purpose is to examine present law to decide whether or not it should be changed. That is what the member is asking. We do not disagree with that. It is just a case of bringing debate to the House of Commons and working through it in an intelligent fashion.

I am surrounded by members from all parties. To the right I have a few Liberals, to the left there are Reformers and there are a few Conservatives as well. The views of the respective individuals are interesting when we are engaged in discussion. There are some areas about which we fundamentally agree. There are some areas about which we fundamentally disagree.

This is the place where that debate has to happen. I urge all members to go home and do some research. In time hopefully this issue will come to the floor of the House where it deserves to be.

Earlier I mentioned the abortion debate which took place in the House. I remember as a member of Parliament at that time that I had to do some soul searching on the issue. I remember saying in the House that according to my definition if life begins at conception life should be allowed to continue. As a parallel to that, if we are talking about human life and we have accepted the fact that life is there, what right do we have as individuals to determine when that life should end? That goes back to the fundamentals.

We are talking about the continuation of human life or the termination of human life. It is no more fundamental than that. It is about life. It is about the preservation of life. It is about the continuation of life.

We have all had loved ones who have been terminally ill. I am sure many times the thought has run through the minds of many loved ones concerning whether or not there should be euthanasia.

At the end of the day I think most Canadians would say it is an issue worthy of debate. It is worthy of debate and it is worthy of consideration. Let us bring it to the floor of the House so that all concerned members will have a chance to speak on it.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

7 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The amendment proposed by the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm is in order. Accordingly, the debate is on the amendment.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

7 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, could you tell me if I have three minutes or six minutes in which to speak. I was told the debate ended at 7.06 p.m.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

7 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

If the hon. member will begin, we will advise him of when he must end.

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

7 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

First of all, Mr. Speaker, let me express the deep respect I feel for my colleague for Burnaby—Douglas. His involvement in public life is worthy of the admiration of all Canadians. He defends his positions with the utmost courage and determination, but also with great respect. I appreciate that very much, as I am sure members on all sides do.

I think the hon. member represents the views of many Canadians. But I must say also that, if there is a consensus in our society not to artificially prolong the suffering of the dying through continued use of life support equipment, I do not think this consensus extends to assisted suicide and euthanasia.

Where I feel we should draw the line and where I disagree fundamentally with those who believe that assisted suicide and euthanasia should be a fact of life is with respect to the deliberate use of whatever means there are to terminate a life. Who are we to decide that we can terminate a life?

I could cite many cases if I had time. I could cite the case of my brother who was given up for dead a few years ago and who now lives a thriving life.

I would like to conclude by quoting from Drs. Herbert Hendin and Gerald Klerman:

If those advocating legalization of assisted suicide prevail, it will be a reflection that as a culture we are turning away from efforts to improve our care of the mentally ill, the infirm, and the elderly. Instead, we would be licensing the right to abuse and exploit the fears of the ill and depressed. We would be—

EuthanasiaPrivate Members' Business

7 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the Order Paper. The hon. member will have the floor when debate resumes.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved