Mr. Speaker, it is sad to see a bill like this one being used to try to misrepresent the facts, because of a lack of understanding, exaggeration or what not. The problem is not as bad as it seems or as the member from the Reform Party made it out to be.
What does the Criminal Code provide in this respect right now? Section 322 of the Criminal Code deals with theft per se. Let us call a spade a spade. Let us call things by their rightful name. To take a vehicle with intent to use it—when there is, in legal terms, actus reus and mens rea, that is to say acting wilfully with criminal intent—it is just that, theft.
The other thing the lawmakers saw fit to add to the Criminal Code under the heading of offences resembling theft is subsection 335 (1), which the hon. member from the Reform Party would like us to amend.
What does this subsection say?
335.(1) Every one who, without the consent of the owner, takes a motor vehicle or vessel with intent to drive, use, navigate or operate it or cause it to be driven, used, navigated or operated is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
This is another offence which, while not being as serious as theft, is also punishable. This is the case where a young person, or an adult for that matter, decides to use an automobile or another vehicle without the owner's consent, but does not have a criminal intent, has no intent to defraud, there is no fraudulent intention, and the lawmakers leave it up to the crown to decide whether to prosecute under section 322 of the Criminal Code or under subsection 335 (1).
I think that, in a free and democratic society as ours in Canada and Quebec, it is healthy to let those who enforce the law use their head in laying charges to try to see what would be most appropriate in each case.
As the government member said earlier, the judges of the Supreme Court of Canada, in 1973, however, not in 1972, handed down a clear ruling in Lafrance v. Regina to the effect that the offence as worded in section 335 (1) is not a lesser offence than ordinary theft. They created two separate offences, each with its own characteristics. The two are distinct and the crown may decide on the charge according to the circumstances of the case. This interpretation by the courts seems to show the effectiveness of the standard set by the present wording.
The amendments or speeches by Reform members I have heard sometimes seem to indicate an interest in seeing everything covered in the Criminal Code. Each situation would have its own section in the Criminal Code. The goal would be to limit the judge's discretion as much as possible. I have the impression that the Reform Party wants to see the courts turned into legal robots, heartless machines operating on the basis of sections, statistics, sometimes even stereotypes. It looks like they want to remove any possibility of discretion, of a decision based on a particular case.
In the field of justice, I learned very early on that nothing is black and white. In this field, as in many others, some things must be analyzed, and I think that judges in the existing system—if everyone does not agree with me on this, we have a big problem—have the training and the skill to analyze and judge the offence before them, which the crown has decided to prosecute under either section 322 or section 335 (1).
But the Reform member's bill goes further still. It calls for a stiffer sentence. Once again, the intention is to prevent judges from exercising their discretion, from using stiff fines to make a distinction between cases. It is true that sometimes this will be the result of a joyride, but other charges will be laid against the wrongdoer, the adolescent or young man who uses a car without the owner's consent, because damaging another person's property is also an offence. And it is the crown prosecutors who look at the facts presented to them by the police and decide which sections they will rely on in court.
There is also a major shortcoming in Bill C-209, and you will agree with me that it is another reason to reject this bill. It undermines the Young Offenders Act.
I know that when it comes to the Young Offenders Act, there is a tremendous gulf separating the Bloc Quebecois and the Reform Party. I think we will never succeed in sharing the same views on this matter.
This is what I concluded when we studied the Young Offenders Act last year. With Bill C-209, an attempt is made to quietly uproot powers in the Young Offenders Act, namely a part of that act relating to the application of section 335(1) of the Criminal Code. There is an attempt to increase the penalties for this offence.
Let it be clear, I do not want to minimize that. I think that presently the Criminal Code includes all the necessary tools for the administration of justice, provided of course that the courts apply it properly. I have every reason to believe that today the courts are applying properly sections 322 and 335(1) of the Criminal Code.
There is another reason why we should reject this bill—this will my last point—and it concerns parental responsibility. In fact, I remember when I was 15 or 16, I was attracted to cars. Are not all young people at that age attracted to cars? I am not saying that I stole cars, I am not saying that I used cars without my parents' consent, but I was nevertheless attracted to cars, especially in a county like Berthier—Montcalm. Berthierville is in that county, and with the Villeneuves, it is natural down there to be attracted to cars.
Can it be said that parents are negligent if one day a child sees a car with its keys, and, without thinking, gets in the car, takes a ride and brings it back to the parking lot where he took it. On a whim, the young person used a car. Does this make that child a criminal?
I know that the members of the Reform Party would want that child to be called a criminal, but I tell you that is not the case. That child, on a whim, used a vehicle. In such a situation, the crown attorney can at his discretion decide to refer to theft under section 322 or to an infraction resembling theft, use without consent, under section 335(1) of the Criminal Code.
I know that it upsets Reform members when they are told such truths, but that is what is found today in the Criminal Code. I do not think the Criminal Code is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and there are things in it that should be changed. If we really want to change it, let us review it completely, rather than trying to do patchwork, as the Reform Party is doing with Bill C-209.