House of Commons Hansard #41 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was pension.

Topics

PrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to bring to the Chair's attention that a point of privilege on this very same matter came before the House last Friday.

I would also like to advise the Chair that at the finance committee meeting last Friday when this matter first came to light as a result of the article in the Globe and Mail that morning, the committee did spend extensive time discussing it. I think the record will show this. I urge the Chair to look at the transcript of the committee, if it is available as it was an in camera session. The members on the finance committee unanimously agreed that the situation that had occurred was unacceptable and passed a resolution requiring the chair to undertake a full investigation of what happened on behalf of all the members so that we could all know.

I just wanted the Chair to know that since last Friday this issue is being dealt with by the chair of the finance committee. I just raise that for your attention, Mr. Speaker.

PrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

We are still on this point of privilege. Unless there are more pertinent facts to be brought to the Chair's attention, I trust we will not go over information that was given previously. The hon. member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley.

PrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:30 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, in support of the question of privilege by the hon. member for Markham, I want to tell you that I have firsthand knowledge of the proceedings and how he got to his question of privilege.

I want to add to the argument. It is very clear from comments made that the Liberal members of the committee in fact did have prior knowledge of the committee report before it was presented to the committee. That was absolutely clear from statements that were made.

Also, there were members of the committee who did acknowledge that they had discussed certain issues that the committee dealt with with the media over the last few days. To what extent that went is up for debate but members had recognized that.

I also believe that the opposition members' privileges were breached due to the fact that the Liberal members of the committee took part in the formation of the committee report at the exclusion of the opposition members of that committee.

PrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I do not want to enter into the details of this dispute because I am not a member of the finance committee and was not previously consulted about this point of privilege.

I do however want to register a concern that we have with any evidence or suggestion that committee reports are being leaked to the media before other members, particularly opposition members, have seen them or for that matter that committee reports are being leaked anywhere. We remember still with great offence that the committee report on the review of the drug patent legislation was leaked to the minister before it was finally reported.

We want to register our continuing opposition to any way in which reports are released prematurely or vetted prematurely in ways that are detrimental to the rights and privileges of opposition members.

PrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:35 p.m.

The Speaker

I will hear one final intervention.

PrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:35 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether this is a corollary to the same point of order but I think you would agree that we are getting into a little dangerous ground when the member from Mississauga talks about votes taken in camera and the result of those votes and so on. It starts to get into a bit of what does an in camera meeting really mean if the vote is then reported back to the House.

PrivilegeRoutine Proceedings

3:35 p.m.

The Speaker

Colleagues, that is what it is when we get into these points where we get opinions from each side. It is a little difficult just to cut off members at a certain point.

The allegations that are made here I take to be very serious for the House. I have had the opinions now of six or seven members which I want to take into consideration. I also want to get other information for myself with regard to what went on in committee. I think I will probably be able to get that so that will come into my decision.

I will take all of this information into account and I will return to the House because it is very important for all of us.

Postal Services Continuation Act, 1997Routine Proceedings

3:35 p.m.

Cardigan P.E.I.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay LiberalMinister of Labour

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-24, an act to provide for the resumption and continuation of postal services.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Postal Services Continuation Act, 1997Routine Proceedings

3:35 p.m.

Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Ontario

Liberal

Don Boudria LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 56(1), I move:

That, notwithstanding any standing order or usual practice of this House, the bill in the name of the Minister of Labour entitled an act to provide for the resumption and continuation of postal services shall be disposed of as follows:

l. Commencing when this order is adopted and concluding when the said bill is read a third time, the House shall not adjourn except pursuant to a motion by a minister of the crown and no Private Members' Business shall be taken up;

  1. The said bill may be read twice or thrice in the same sitting;

  2. After being read a second time, the said bill shall be referred to a committee of the whole; and

  3. During the consideration of the said bill no division may be deferred.

Mr. Speaker, if this motion is adopted, it would be my intention to call it tomorrow.

Postal Services Continuation Act, 1997Routine Proceedings

3:40 p.m.

The Speaker

Will those members who object to the motion please rise in their places.

And fewer than 25 members having risen:

Postal Services Continuation Act, 1997Routine Proceedings

3:40 p.m.

The Speaker

Fewer than 25 members having risen, the motion is adopted.

(Motion agreed to)

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to table a petition on behalf of a good number of constituents of mine.

The petitioners call on this government to take serious my constituents' concerns about changes to the Canada pension plan and to propose changes to the seniors benefit. Many of these constituents are senior citizens who know the benefits of a comprehensive pension system.

They are concerned about the future of their children and their grandchildren. They call on the government to rescind Bill C-2, which they believe imposes massive CPP premium hikes while it reduces benefits. They call for changes in the financial arrangements to provide for a more effective mechanisms of investment than that proposed in Bill C-2. They call on the House for a national review of the retirement income system in Canada to ensure the adequacy of Canada's retirement system today and tomorrow.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to table a petition from a number of Canadians, including some from my riding of Mississauga South.

The petitioners draw to the attention of the House that managing the family home and caring for preschool children is an honourable profession which has not been recognized for its value to society.

The petitioners would also like to raise an issue included in the report of the National Forum on Health, that the Income Tax Act does not take into account the cost of raising children for families that make the choice to provide care in the home.

Therefore the petitioners pray and call upon parliament to pursue initiatives to assist families that decide to provide care in the home for preschool children.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Maloney Liberal Erie—Lincoln, ON

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to present a petition today on behalf of my constituents of Erie—Lincoln.

The petitioners are concerned that the moral structure of society is being threatened and that community standards are being eroded.

They request that the Criminal Code of Canada be reviewed and amended to correct and clarify the sections pertaining to public nudity to abolish exposure of female breasts in public.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

3:45 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I suggest that all the questions be allowed to stand.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

3:45 p.m.

The Speaker

Is that agreed?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

3:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of Bill C-2, an act to establish the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board and to amend the Canada Pension Plan and the Old Age Security Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, as reported with amendments from the committee; and of the motions in Group No. 6.

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

The Speaker

I believe that the hon. member for Tobique—Mactaquac still had seven minutes. He has the floor.

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gilles Bernier Progressive Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, CPP contribution rates will have to rise to adequate levels to ensure the long term viability of the plan.

These increased contributions must be more than offset by substantial reductions in other taxes like EI. This means more money going into the plan without asking Canadians to pick up the tab and without creating more threats to job creation. As a result, the CPP will get the funding it needs without increasing personal tax burdens.

Canadians need to know that never again will their pension funds be mismanaged the way they have been in the past. They also deserve a greater return on their investment. For this reason there must be a complete restructuring of the financing of the CPP to secure it for the future.

Many young people today are already sure they will not have the CPP when they need it. In my riding I see young people who have a lot of trouble finding jobs that would allow them to earn a decent living and plan for the future. The NDP amendments would let them foot the bill for us. The NDP wants all sorts of benefits and all sorts of goodies. That is just not right. I cannot support that. I cannot support putting my children's future on the line.

As the only effective opposition in the House of Commons it is our role to explain to Canadians that there are alternatives to the government's position. The government is trying to steamroll these changes through parliament and the official opposition party has been too inept to stop it. Canadians deserve real policy alternatives, not just opposition while the cameras are rolling.

It is with some dismay that we have seen the government suggest reckless changes to the CPP which would affect Canadians long after the government has been forgotten.

In good faith we presented a series of amendments to the legislation during the committee hearings. The government rejected all our amendments and then proceeded to introduce watered down versions of what we proposed. Its amendments are too little too late but show how effective opposition and effective policy alternatives can influence change to misguided government legislation.

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board ActGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Madam Speaker, there is a lot of hypocrisy on the benches across the way. While Canadians will have to pay 9.9% for a Canada pension plan, a plan which the Liberals across the way first created and ran into the hole to the tune of $600 billion, the government has another plan. Its members have their gold plated pension plan. While Canadians are contributing to the tune of 9.9%, having their premiums hiked up 70% or better from 5.85%, government members have their gold plated MP pension.

There is no greater hypocrisy than to have politicians set their own pension separate, above and beyond that of the people they serve. That is exactly what the Liberal government has done.

The Liberals do not seem to see a problem, but I do and I think a lot of taxpayers do when they see members of Parliament collecting million dollar pensions. Indeed one of their former colleagues, Brian Tobin, who is now the premier of Newfoundland, is collecting a pension which, if he lives to the age of 75, will result in him collecting $3.4 million. It is outrageous that they are collecting this amount of money. A number of members opposite will be collecting millions.

The Minister of Finance is a millionaire. He is talking about the changes to the CPP as though he personally cares about them. He has a lot of his money offshore in foreign trusts and is not paying tax on it. However Canadians will have to pay nearly 10% of their income into the Canada pension plan to a government that bankrupted the pension plan. The finance minister's own father said that it would never amount to more than a few hundred dollars and would never rise to more than 5%. Shame on the government.

It gets even worse. In the last term from 1993 to the last election there were 36 tax increases. The bill represents either the 37th or the 38th tax increase depending on which passes first, Bill C-2 or Bill C-10. With Bill C-10 once again the government is hitting upon those least able to pay. The government is taxing back and redefining as income social security benefits which a number of our seniors receive from the United States. It will affect 50,000 people to the tune of about $2,000 each. It is a tax grab of $100 million. The government is hitting seniors. Bill C-2 and Bill C-10 represent two new tax increases which will impact the pensions and retirement incomes of Canadians. Shame on the government.

Now I would like to speak about our youth. It is a subject which is near and dear to my heart. The young people of Canada are being forced to pay into a pension plan out of which they will see less than a 2% rate of return. Anyone could get that rate of return. They are being forced to contribute to the plan in the same way as I have been forced as a new member of Parliament to contribute to the gold plated pension plan of which I do not want to be a part. Many of my colleagues had the opportunity to opt out of that pension plan in the 35th parliament.

We are seeing here a draconian measure of the greatest degree. The Liberals are plucking from taxpayers what they make by the sweat of their brows and the fruits of their labour. They are telling them that they have to contribute to the government pension plan. It has been poorly mismanaged in the past.

The Reform Party has been proposing the idea of a mandatory or super RRSP. What could be better than that? People who would contribute to that plan would own it. There would be a real sense of ownership. They would be able to track the super RRSP. They would be able to know where their money is. It would not go into some account. It would not go in through one door and travel out through another. The fund would actually be theirs. They would own it. These people would have far more responsibility and far more accountability for it.

How do we trust a government across the way that talks about a Canada pension plan investment board when it has such a heinous record in terms of patronage appointments? This year alone, excluding the Senate, there were 50 patronage appointments made by the government. Those were just the ones we could find. It can be guaranteed that for every patronage appointment we could find there are probably two or three more. The government has that type of track record with patronage appointments.

The government broke its word. A member across the way helped to write a critique of patronage positions and what was being done with the previous Tory administration. The Liberals in opposition said that these matters should be brought before a parliamentary committee and that these jobs should be given based on merit. Yet when the Liberals got into government what did they do? In 1997 alone there were 50 patronage appointments. They made more patronage appointments to the Senate than even Brian Mulroney made when he was prime minister.

The Liberals have an atrocious record on the whole issue of patronage appointments. Yet once again the finance minister screams that we should trust him when it comes to the Canada pension plan investment board.

The record speaks for itself. How can we trust somebody who has given his word but goes ahead and breaks it time and time again? How can we trust a man who has little or no understanding or empathy for what the average taxpayer does or for what lower incomes Canadians have to pay into this and what a struggle it is for them? With his shipping companies and his tens of millions of dollars offshore, how can he relate to the amount of money these people have to take from their incomes to put into his Canada pension plan scheme?

The Liberals have a poor track record yet this finance minister has the gall to stand before us and say that this is the save all, the same way his own father said that the Canada pension plan was a save all when it first came out. It was a pay as you go plan with no accountability and no ownership on behalf of the individual Canadians contributing to it. Shame on them.

I will go through the reasons for it being wrong. Who will pay for it? Taxpayers, in the same way they paid for the $600 billion unfunded liability that was the CPP before reform. Who wants it? Do people want to have a 10% CPP contribution rate? No. They wish the money had been invested properly in the first place. They wish they had a sense of ownership with respect to the plan instead of having it badly mismanaged by the Liberal government.

Who slips through the cracks? Let us look at all the people who will be paying outrageously greater amounts of money than what they reasonably should. For example, people under 35 years of age will be paying into the plan many more times than what they will receive from it if the plan even survives under the government mismanagement.

Let us also look at the hypocrisy of MP pensions, the idea that Liberals have pensions above and beyond what any taxpayer could ever get. For every dollar they put in, the taxpayer puts in close to four dollars. Yet with the pension plan the public gets a pittance.

We can also look at the idea of the Liberals going after the seniors in terms of social security benefits from the United States. Once again they are going after the young and everybody else with the Canada pension plan tax hike. We can look at it from the point of view that it is the 37th or the 38th tax increase the government has brought in since 1993. We can look at it from the point of view of a finance minister who has little or no appreciation and does not care, a finance minister who does not pay his own fair share of taxes because he hides money out of the country.

For all these reasons, shame on them.

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

André Harvey Progressive Conservative Chicoutimi, QC

Madam Speaker, I was listening to my Reform colleague talking about the previous government. He was saying that the present government is not any better than the previous government. I got the impression, listening to the Reform members, that they think they know the answer to everything.

I wish to emphasize that we have nothing to be ashamed of regarding the work of the previous government in the area of tax reform. Unfortunately, the present government did not follow up on that reform. We should also remember the free trade agreement, which allowed us to increase our exports by 140%. Talk is cheap, but the facts of history should not be ignored.

To come back to Bill C-2, I believe that one of the basic errors the present government is making is to want to go too far too quickly. I think it should be criticized for acting this way. This is cause for concern because this government does not presently have a very heavy legislative agenda. The government would have time to consult the population further, to better inform Canadians of the importance of this reform.

The reform of the Canada pension plan is the key issue during this mandate. I believe the government should be willing to spend more time on this. Unfortunately, it is addressing this issue with considerable indifference.

They seem to want to copy very quickly, especially in the case of the investment board. They seem to think that this investment board will prevent all mistakes, protect us from any patronage, and so on. Quebec offers an interesting example, with the Caisse de dépôt et placement managing all Quebec funds, but perhaps we should take a closer look at this example.

I am convinced that further consultations on the subject would show that Canadians feel it is a little risky to give exclusive access to this kind of money—tens of billions of dollars—to an exclusive fund, which, as we will see in a moment, may not be protected against political interference.

Unfortunately, the government is moving ahead quickly, establishing an investment board that will enable it to manage all funds contributed by Canadians. I think this is a very dangerous and risky proposition. In time, it will justify thinking that there should have been two or three boards, in totally different areas, instead of just one. This would at least have had the advantage of giving us a higher degree of security in every regard, including patronage appointments and investment choices.

We all agree, of course, that it is important to amend this act. It is a fundamental component of our social safety net. However, we must try to be as fair and equitable as possible in making these amendments. With this bill, we will be dipping into the pockets of all Canadian taxpayers in a totally unacceptable fashion. Tens of thousands of jobs will be lost as a result.

Change is clearly required, but the main reason for that change is obviously our aging population. It is an inescapable reality. There is also the dwindling birth rate. This means even greater pressure on the fund.

Life expectancy is, of course, another factor that is not negligible. There is also the rising number of people on disability. There is the great concern generated by the general thrust that the government wants to give the fund. Then there are the reduced benefits that will be paid, even though the government will be dipping deep in the pockets of all Canadian taxpayers.

We are not talking about one or two billion dollars: we are talking about an annual average of $11 billion. This measure will result in the loss of tens of thousands of jobs.

As a political party, we want to ensure the program's long term viability. Obviously, everyone agrees with this goal. We also want to ensure sound management of the fund. Sound management simply means there should be a variety of investment options, given the huge amounts that will be collected.

What we want in particular is for the investment board to be protected from political interference. I will forego giving any examples of this; all the hon. members of this House are aware that it is possible for a government to intervene with the investment board and to steer it more toward ends that could be partisan or even political.

Our political party agrees with an equitable contribution unrelated to income level. We are also particularly in agreement with the fact that all of our fellow citizens need to be encouraged not to rely solely on government retirement funds. I think that, when positive measures are taken, people are in a position to understand, and particularly to make their own investments, if they are given worthwhile means to encourage this.

What we want above all is for the $11 billion in increased contributions taken from the pockets of Canadian taxpayers to be offset by lower taxes and, for goodness' sake, by lower employment insurance premiums as well. It is inconceivable that the government has created a $15 billion fund at a time when all Canadians need that money. Not $1 billion or $2 billion, but $15 billion have been salted away in order to reduce the federal deficit.

We know very well that the record of the present government as far as its battle with the deficit is concerned is due, among other things, to—and you will forgive me for bringing up measures of the former government—the way free trade has performed. The present government voted against free trade. Our exports to the U.S. market have risen from $90 billion to $215 billion. This is one of the measures which now enable the government to fight the deficit without having to dig into the taxpayers' pockets.

We are, therefore, in agreement with a variation in the contribution rate, but we are particularly in agreement with people not having to pay more in order to ensure the long term survival of the federal pension fund. This means lowering employment insurance contributions at a time when there are $10 to $15 billion dormant in the fund. Book transfers are made, and then they say we can eliminate the deficit. It is being eliminated now, thanks to other measures adopted by the previous government.

It is obvious that we would be in favour of increasing the foreign content limit of RRSPs from 20% to 50%. This is a progressive measure and one with which we are in agreement. We are also in agreement with staggering the increase over a longer period. We will not go to the wall over a staggered increase, but we do want to see this increase balanced out by a corresponding decrease in EI premiums and a reduction in taxation sectors.

It seems to me that the government would now be able to start the process of giving money back to Canadians. That is the only way to create jobs. Let us not forget that a 1% increase represents 25,000 to 35,000 lost jobs. This is the completely unavoidable reality of the situation.

Back then, the Liberals criticized payroll taxes. They no longer feel bound by the wonderful promises they made. The increase in CPP premiums must be offset by a decrease in other taxation sectors. The Liberals opposed a ceiling on increases in CPP premiums. These increases could go well beyond 9.9% without Parliament having to give its approval. This is an enormous door cabinet is opening. We must be very cautious. Above all, we must not be too quick to pass this measure. The aftermath could be terrible. A 1% increase—believe it or not—will result in 25,000 to 30,000 lost jobs. Entire municipalities will be threatened by this bill.

My last point is that politics must not be allowed to play any role whatsoever in the Canada pension plan investment board. I repeat that it is extremely dangerous to have just one investment board to manage a fund of $100 to $200 billion dollars. There have been cases in some countries where exclusive public funds were completely misappropriated.

I therefore ask all my opposition colleagues and even government members to think long and hard before turning over a large fund to one board. I am not sure that the Caisse de dépôt et placement alone is the ideal tool for managing the entire Quebec fund. I have questions about this, as do many people, and our party will make this argument over the coming hours in an attempt to change this aspect.

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Gordon Earle NDP Halifax West, NS

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to join in this debate on Bill C-2, the Canada pension plan.

The Canada pension plan is a very important part of our society. This universal plan, I believe, is under attack by the Liberal government. This plan, which guarantees benefits for people when they reach their senior years, is facing a great amount of difficulty by the proposals in Bill C-2.

I want to talk particularly today about the disability provisions. I stand in support of the motions that were made by our party, the NDP, concerning this aspect of the Canada pension plan. These motions we made are designed to offset the provisions in the bill which alter the rules for calculating disability benefits and which make it harder to be eligible for benefits.

We know that the people applying for these pensions have enough difficulty now when they try to obtain what they are entitled to obtain; some of the bureaucratic delays that they have to go through, some of the difficulties while they are experiencing pain and disability. It is very degrading for many people.

Now we have a bill which proposes to make it even more difficult for people to obtain their benefits.

The proposed bill is very hard on those who are self-employed, on seniors and on women. By deindexing the year's basic exemption by freezing it at $3,500 beginning in 1998, this downloads the burden of pension hikes on the low income earners. We know that low income people are experiencing enough difficulty now without having to pay more in order to obtain benefits.

Another concern is that the effect of adding the definition of maximum pensionable earnings average alters the benefit formula for calculation with a net effect again of reducing benefits. Reducing benefits is all we need to hear about today. Pensions themselves are so low right now that when we talk about reducing them even further we realize that we are creating extreme difficulty for people.

Just this past weekend I was at a function where a constituent was telling me that he receives a $560 disability pension. Out of that he has to pay a mortgage of $400. That leaves him with $160 to pay his lights, heat, telephone and buy groceries to feed himself and his family. Imagine $160 a month. Now we are talking about looking at the Canada pension plan so that we end up reducing people's benefits.

The changes proposed regarding the minimum contributory requirements for a disability pension result in a reduction to disability benefits and further hardship, requiring recipients to work and contribute in four of the last six years instead of two of the last three or five of the last ten. We want clause 69 which provides for that to be deleted altogether. Let us not make things more difficult for people.

Another concern is that Canada pension plan premiums are collected from only the first $35,800 of income. The effect of this is that those who make over the maximum pensionable earnings pay a lesser percentage than those who make less. We need to make sure that as one earns more, one contributes accordingly rather than having the low income workers always bearing the brunt.

An hon. member of the Bloc Quebecois mentioned earlier that the NDP wanted to remove elements of the legislation relating to fraud. I believe some reference was being made to our motions where we want to amend Bill C-2 by deleting clauses 87 and 107. These are the clauses which spell out massive new powers for the minister responsible to conduct investigations into the viability of claimants.

These clauses go so far as to talk about being able to enter people's dwellings with a warrant to enforce penalties, to gather information, to request information from third parties. What third parties, I ask. Your neighbours, your friends? These clauses also talk about investigating Canada pension plan claims and imposing penalties for infractions. Who is imposing penalties for the infractions that the government administration causes with respect to the administration of this plan right now?

I draw the House's attention to a case where someone applied for benefits, was refused, appealed to the review board tribunal, a favourable decision was rendered and then the minister through the department appealed that favourable decision. Here is someone who is unable to work, is suffering, is going through all kinds of mental anguish, wins at the tribunal level and then it is appealed by the department.

Under the appeal process when that appeal is made, I believe to the vice-chair of the Canada pension board, that official is supposed to forthwith under the act let the parties know whether that leave to appeal has been granted. What is happening is the applications for appeal are piling up on that official's desk and a year later the person has not even got around to responding as to whether or not that appeal will be allowed, let alone setting up the process to carry through with that appeal.

This kind of bureaucratic delay and infraction of the current plan is of deep concern to me. And now under Bill C-2 we are going to introduce even more powerful mechanisms that will slow down the process and cause indignity to those who need to apply for these pensions. We have to think very carefully about this.

When we talk about safety and we talk about safeguards against fraud, I maintain that that safeguard is already there now. The safeguard is there in the integrity of our seniors, the people who are going to receive these benefits, the people in our society who are going to benefit from the Canada pension plan.

By introducing the kinds of changes that are addressed in this bill, we are automatically implying that our senior citizens and others are not—

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Stoney Creek Ontario

Liberal

Tony Valeri LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think you will find that the member is now discussing Group No. 7 and if you check, you will find that we are still on Group No. 6.

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

Yes. May I remind the hon. member that we are still discussing Group No. 6.