Madam Speaker, it is not necessarily with great pleasure that I rise to speak to this piece of legislation, but I certainly do have the opportunity to speak, albeit somewhat limited because of the closure that has been suggested by the Liberal government.
I find that in itself terribly damaging to this piece of legislation.
Normally when legislation is put forward by the government in power, it is done with the best interests of Canadians at heart when the legislation is proposed.
The government suggested that this legislation cannot be debated in the House and did not give the opportunity to consult Canadians about this piece of legislation which will impact them quite dramatically over the next numbers of years, not only from a premium perspective but also from the perspective of a return on those dollars that are going to be invested in the CPP program.
I take exception to the fact that Canadians were not consulted, that the people who will be paying the majority of the premium price have not had an opportunity to tell us one way or another what their views are. This government has decided in its own wisdom to stop the debate, “Let's not give anybody an opportunity to talk about the pros and cons”.
There are a number of citizens who would love to have the opportunity to speak to this. The first are obviously the seniors. We have a high proportion of seniors.
They have been talking to me. They have been calling me and asking what is going to happen to them. As well, they have a need and a desire to make sure that their children and their children's children are taken care of in the years to come.
Those seniors would like to be consulted. They are currently reaping some of the benefits of a Canadian pension plan that was put in place 30 years ago. It also behoves the government to consult with the baby boomers—I put myself in that category and you too, Madam Speaker—who are going to be affected quite dramatically by the fact that we will be faced with substantial increases in premiums and may not be able to get any return on investment.
The Canada pension plan, I believe, should be based on a very simple premise. That premise is a pension plan is a pension plan. It is not a tax. It is not an opportunity to raise money to pay for others who have gone before us.
A pension plan is a pension plan. When money is put into a pension plan, you expect to have a rate of return and certainly a return on that investment at some later date.
That is not the case here. Until the government admits that this is a tax grab, believe me, we will be debating this bill as long and as hard as we possibly can for the benefit of all Canadians.
Let us look at the legislation. I will talk to the motions before us. By the way, they are good motions in some cases and in some other cases perhaps not quite as valid.
This is just one attack on what is happening with our pension structure in Canada. Other effects are going to be on the OAS, the old age security, and on RRSP contributions as was mentioned earlier by a speaker from another party.
Make no mistake about it. The Progressive Conservative Party wishes to have a sustainable, stable Canada pension plan, but a pension plan, not a tax. We believe in sustainability. In fact, we believe that premiums have to be increased in order to make the plan sustainable.
We have said all along that in order to do that, we would like to offset these regressive payroll taxes that are being proposed now with the huge, intolerable increases, excessive increases in the CPP premium.
That can be offset quite simply by taking the EI premiums that are currently in place and generating substantial revenues that are going to offset the deficit. This government in a self-congratulatory fashion is saying that those dollars are going to the deficit.
There are other methods to reduce the deficit. The huge resources that are being generated from EI premiums should go into the CPP. Those are payroll taxes. Payroll taxes destroy jobs. I am sure that everybody recognizes that the change in premiums to $1,635 in the year 2003 is a premium matched by the employer.
An employer will have few options to fund the premium increase; reduce the salaries of their employees which would give them less disposable income; do not give increases in the following years because of the excessive changes to the CPP premium level or lay people off. In fact, at that time nobody would be contributing, not to society and tax revenues but also to the CPP. The final and worst option is to lose money in the business and not have a business in the future. That does not help anybody. That is what happens when there are regressive payroll taxes.
Our plan is simple. Have a sustainable fund and make sure that the offset of the CPP premiums come from EI. The Reform plan, unfortunately, is very simplistic. It does not have a plan. We should simply throw up our arms and say every man, woman and child for themselves. Let us simply say that a $600 billion unfunded liability does not exist. It does not work and it never has worked. However, these are very simple solutions for complex issues.
I would also like to say that it is not only seniors and the baby-boomers that I am concerned about, but the people who come after. I too have children, ages 22 and 18. They are going to join the job market as soon as I have paid for their university education. They will be in the job market and be contributing members of this society. In fact, they will be contributing a substantial amount of money to a plan that may well, for all intents and purposes, not be available to them when they are depending on it.
Remember the simple premise? A pension is a pension. CPP is a pension. When we contribute to it, we should get a return back on the investment. If we are not going to do that, then call it what it really is, a tax.
I hate looking at the term benefit. There are benefits that are paid. No, there is a return on the investment that is being paid. The return on that investment is proposed to be decreased on an annual basis. However, in fact, the premiums are being increased on annual basis.
We have heard the numbers and they are not refutable. Contributors will be getting no return on their investment when they want to collect CPP in the not too distant future.
Motion No. 11 from the NDP, unfortunately we cannot support it. It is a proposal to eliminate the premium table. We have always said that we believe in the CPP. There has to be funding in order to have a sustainable fund. There has to be a premium table. Premiums have to be paid and certainly premiums have to be increased, but with a decrease in the EI premium as well. That is sustainability. That is not regressive payroll taxes.