Debates of Dec. 5th, 1997

Committees Of The House

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

moved that the 13th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, presented on Wednesday, November 26, 1997, be concurred in.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the House that I will be sharing my time with my colleague from North Vancouver.

In moving concurrence of the 13th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, I want to emphatically inform and appeal to backbench members to stand up for their rights and duties in bringing forward issues which are of concern to their constituents and Canadians across the country.

We were asked to revive the mandate of the subcommittee of the 35th Parliament. It is instructive to read the motion that precipitated that study.

That the committee undertake a study of private members' ballot items, to determine the possibility of allowing all or more such items to become votable, and to study the disposition of private members' bills at the committee stage.

The present committee basically went over the recommendations of the previous committee, made some minor changes and submitted the report. At present there are four major hurdles to cross before a private members' initiative can finally become law in our country.

The first hurdle is the random draw. I must admit that due to the sheer volume of items submitted, I see no practical way of solving this problem beyond extending the number of items which can be put on the order of precedence by multiple seconders. I must also add that it is possible that the large volume is due to the lottery system. The more tickets bought, the higher the probability of winning. Perhaps if we were to change it, the volume would be decreased.

The second hurdle is the appeal to the subcommittee to determine votability. This subcommittee currently works on consensus. In my mind it is offensive for a single member in this subcommittee to have the power to veto the votability of another hon. member's item. That is how this subcommittee works.

Over and over when members are discussing their private members' business in the House, they ask for unanimous consent to make it votable. Invariably there will be one member in the House who will say no, and the unanimous consent is denied. That one member in the House can deny that consent is no less offensive than one member of a five member committee also being capable of shutting down the initiative of a private member.

The third hurdle is quite obviously gaining the support of the majority of members in the House, including overcoming front bench control. I want to emphasize this, including front bench control. We keep saying that private members' business is a free vote. As a matter of fact, the front bench can control whether or not it even comes to the House. That is where the control lies.

The last hurdle is getting the bill back from committee. We have seen numerous occasions where a bill has been killed in committee by the tactic of simply not getting around to dealing with it. The committee report addresses some of these hurdles, but there is no recommendation regarding the original mandate of the committee, namely increasing the number of votable items. The primary thing the committee was to do, it did not do.

It is also instructive for members to know that when I proposed to append a minority report, it was declined by the committee of procedure and house affairs. We are, therefore, providing an opportunity for all members on both sides of the House to express themselves on this issue. I hope that all members will support what is being done here today.

In the 35th Parliament in the first session, 505 motions were introduced by private members and 12 passed. That is 2%. Of the 266 bills introduced, three received royal assent. That is 1%.

In the second session of the last Parliament, 355 motions were introduced and seven passed. Again that is 2%. Of the 344 bills introduced, six received royal assent. Again that is 2%.

We believe that all private members' business should be votable. At minimum, a start would be to arrange for more items to be votable. This could be achieved by a possible combination of increasing the amount of time spent each week on private members' business and by reducing the amount of debate time on each votable item.

In concluding, I wish to draw to the attention of all members here that the previous committee solicited written comments from all members. There were 45 replies and the overwhelming message from the majority of those addressed the frustration with the votability question.

Here is just one quotation from one of those presentations: “It is unacceptable that under a strange and archaic House rule, a lone MP can bring about the rejection of a broadly supported private member's bill”.

Members should also know that all changes to standing orders, including those regarding private members' business, are subject to cabinet approval. Unless backbench members stand together, it is likely that there will be no changes and private members' business will simply consume a lot of time and effort without a significant chance of changing any laws.

I urge all members to stand up and be counted on this most important democratic issue.

[Ted White, Reform, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Elk Island has done an excellent job of articulating the frustration that is felt by many and perhaps the majority of the members in this place with respect to the handling of private members' business.

I know that is not unique just to this Parliament. It affects parliaments throughout the world. That frustration is fully justified. It is fully justified not just from the perspective of fairness within our own Canadian system, but also by comparison with the rules of those other parliaments. Many of them have made changes which do improve the private members' business function and the power of private members.

I read recently an article from the Political Science Department at Queen's University which was in the November 1997 edition of the publication “Policy Options”. That article was written by Professor C.E.S. Franks. He wrote that private members are weaker in Canada than in most other parliamentary systems, that private members are not normally influential in Parliament, but that their position can be and should be strengthened.

One way to strengthen that position and the influence of individual members would be to genuinely overhaul the way that private members' business is dealt with in this place.

In that regard, as the member for Elk Island has explained, the 13th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs contains little more than a few crumbs of hope for meaningful change.

A brief scan of all the private members' bills and motions presently before the House seems to support the position that at least half of all the bills and motions have been drafted by individual members in what appears to be a way of recognizing lobbying or efforts put in by their constituents to have something done about a particular law or situation. They appear to address issues which generally the government refuses to acknowledge as a problem or else just simply does not want to put on its agenda but which the average Canadian views as quite important.

Bills and motions introduced to this place in both the previous and this Parliament on consecutive sentencing, elimination of section 745 of the Criminal Code, grandparent access to children of broken marriages, accountability of organizations which receive taxpayer funding such as charities, victims rights, are all issues and initiatives capable of attracting wide support of members and they certainly have the support of the general public, the voters and the taxpayers who pay the bill for what we do here.

Unfortunately, as the member for Elk Island has already mentioned, as we all know as private members here, even if an individual member is lucky enough to have his or her bill or motion drawn in the lottery we still have to overcome tremendous hurdles along the way to finally getting royal assent. It is virtually impossible.

After the lottery occurs and we make a selection among the available bills or motions, there is no guarantee that bill or motion will even be made votable.

Many members are suspicious that the government imposes its agenda through the workings of that committee. One of the government's own members during the last Parliament called the committee a cockroach committee because she said it meets behind closed doors and then it runs away from its decisions.

It is certainly true that the committee keeps no minutes and gives no reasons for its decisions. This fact alone is enough to encourage suspicion and an atmosphere of discontent and irritation among individual members.

However, it need not be so. Other jurisdictions have either made a much greater percentage of private members' bills votable or, as in the case of New Zealand, made all private members' bills votable.

The undeniable fact is that having a votable bill or motion dramatically increases the satisfaction level for individual members even if that vote is subsequently lost. Almost anyone can accept the democratic outcome of a meaningful debate followed by a vote. If the vote goes against the bill, the member can accept it, but to have never had the opportunity to have the vote in the first place is a devastating situation to occur.

There are many different ways in which the present unfairness could be addressed, for example making all private members' bills and motions fully votable. Admittedly, this would result in less private members' business getting to the floor of the House, but most members, perhaps the majority or perhaps all members, would be willing to take this trade-off in return for at least having the chance to have a votable bill if they do get to the floor of the House.

Another way of increasing member satisfaction with respect to votability might be to have more than one level of votability. For example, simple one line motions could perhaps be allocated one full hour of debate followed by a vote and referral to some sort of committee if the House so wished. That is one way of dealing with simple motions, or perhaps deferring the vote to another day when the government has votes planned any way, or if the hours of the House could be rearranged so that Private Members' Business took place, for example, all day Friday. Perhaps more business could be handled that way with most or all of the bills made votable.

A further suggestion would be to implement a system which puts responsibility on individual members to go out there and get a minimum number of signatures in order to be eligible for votability. At least then the competence of the bill or motion would be put at question and there would be a chance of getting really good quality material to the floor of the House.

Any combination of these suggestions or even some others would probably work out very well. In other words, it would only take a very little amount of creativity to find a much better way to accommodate private members' business within the system. In the end, the government can still prevent a bill or motion from receiving royal assent. So giving us a little satisfaction at the time of debate and vote certainly is not losing control as far as the government is concerned.

With all this in mind, I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word “That” and substituting the following: “the thirteenth report be not now concurred in but that it be recommitted to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs with instruction that they amend the same so as to recommend that all Private Members' Business be votable and appropriate measures be taken to ensure an increased amount of time is available in the House for such business”.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

In the opinion of the Chair the motion is in order.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, without getting into a debate on the merits of the issue raised by the hon. member, I would like to point out to the House that there is a problem concerning the process put forward by Reform members on the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The issue was discussed by the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business. While the subcommittee was drafting its report, the member for Elk Island made little or no comments. When the report of the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business was submitted to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, it was learned that the member for Elk Island wished to include a minority report. This minority report was never even discussed among members of the subcommittee.

Therefore, you can understand the natural and unavoidable reaction of the members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, who said there was a procedural or technical defect, since the member came up with suggestions that he never even bothered to submit to his colleagues on the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business.

Why should the member for Elk Island be granted the privilege, recognized in the Standing Orders of this House, of tabling a dissenting report, a dissenting opinion, when that opinion was never brought to the attention of the Subcommittee on Private Members Business? If a member has to or wants to submit or attach a dissenting report or opinion, he must first inform his colleagues of his dissenting opinion. Otherwise, as I was saying earlier, there is to all intents and purposes a technical defect.

Of course, we reacted properly, whatever the merits of the no doubt quite valid arguments presented by our colleague from Elk Island. We took the decision of refusing to attach his dissenting report or opinion to the report to be submitted to this House.

Therefore I think that our colleague from Elk Island is only adding insult to injury when he rises in this House to ask his colleagues to accept a dissenting opinion which was rejected by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and which was never discussed by the Subcommittee on Private Members Business.

Therefore, I ask all my colleagues in this House to reject this motion, again, independently of the merits of the opinions or suggestions expressed by our colleague and of the completely legitimate right of any political party in this House to attach a dissenting opinion to a committee report.

That is basically what I had to say. But whatever the motives behind the attitude of the member for Elk Island in making these suggestions, I disagree with some of the things he is proposing. But since I have risen to speak on the form and not the content of his proposal, I will stop here and ask my colleagues to vote against this motion.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Pursuant to Standing Order 45, the recorded division stands deferred until Monday, December 8 at the ordinary hour of daily adjournment.

[Bob Kilger, Liberal, Stormont—Dundas, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I believe you would find consent that the vote be further deferred until Tuesday, December 9, 1997 at the expiry of Government Orders.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Petitions

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to present a petition signed by over 2,300 individuals from all across Canada. The petition organizers, representatives from food banks and national anti-hunger groups, are here with us in the gallery today. The petitioners point to Canada's commitment under the United Nations covenant on economic, social and cultural rights to maintain a decent standard of living for Canadians while poverty and hunger for too many have become a fact of everyday life in Canada.

The petitioners therefore call on Parliament to restore national standards for social assistance, to ensure that such standards are maintained through adequate funding to the provinces and to provide leadership in eradicating poverty and hunger in Canada.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to present a petition today. Pursuant to Standing Order 36, it has been duly certified and approved as correct. I am proud but it is very unfortunate that I have to present this petition. It involves a person who lost his life as a result of the use of a firearm.

In October 1996 a man pleaded guilty to taking the life of his neighbour with a sawed off 303 rifle. This man then hid the body and held the victim's mother at gunpoint. Contrary to the federal law which states that anyone using a firearm who is convicted of criminal negligence causing death will face a mandatory four year jail term, this person was sentenced to only two years.

Therefore the petitioners humbly pray, and so do I, that Parliament take action to intervene in cases across the country that fail to uphold the spirit and the letter of the law.

[John Duncan, Reform, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a petition with 37 names of residents from the Campbell River area in my riding. They ask parliament to hold a binding referendum on restoring the death penalty for first degree murder.

Questions On The Order Paper

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

I wish to inform the House that because of the ministerial statement Government Orders will be extended by 11 minutes.