Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to take part in this debate. It has been a long day. There has been much lively debate since the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs opened the debate at noon hour. I think it has been a very interesting and honest debate.
Members on all sides of the House have taken part and have expressed their views and opinions. That is the way it should be when we are considering a matter as serious as constitutional amendment.
We have to look at a number of issues in making our decision. The first has been raised by many members speaking on the issue today, that is to answer the question of whether the process was fair. I am referring to the process whereby the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador proposed the resolution that it passed unanimously on a free vote in the legislature of Newfoundland and Labrador. We need to review that.
It was my pleasure to be a member of the special joint committee that studied this matter. I would like to make reference to one of the witnesses who appeared before the committee, Mr. David Schneiderman, executive director of the Centre for Constitutional Studies at the University of Alberta. Professor Schneiderman indicated to the committee that certain fundamental questions must be asked in determining whether the process was a fair one.
He asked: “Was there an opportunity for debate and deliberation among the general public?” The committee had no difficulty coming to the conclusion that there had been because testimony before it revealed that this debate had been going on for quite some time in Newfoundland and Labrador.
Further he asked: “Could the same result have been achieved through non-constitutional means?” We are dealing with a request to amend the constitution, which has the effect of extinguishing denominational rights. Whether we are for or against it, it needs to be accomplished by constitutional means.
The next question was: “Was the subject matter of the amendment the subject of an election or referendum?” We know there have been two referenda with respect to this issue.
The last question was: “Were the communities of interest most directly affected consulted and given an opportunity for meaningful participation?” On that point the committee came to the conclusion that all parties on all sides of the issue over a period of years and leading up to the final referendum of this year certainly had those opportunities.
The majority of the committee had very little difficulty in coming to its conclusion. Members of the government and two of the four opposition parties came to the conclusion that the process was fair.
During the debate and also by persons and groups that appeared before the committee, it was further indicated that the process was tainted in that the government participated in the referendum. I submit that is only reasonable. The legislation of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador was at stake. There is a duty on a government proposing legislation to support it. I do not see how that allegation could cause any concern as to the fairness and reasonableness of the process.
Earlier in debate the member for St. John's East indicated his concern that the charter would apply to the new amended term 17 and consequently the provisions of 17(2) and 17(3) which provide for courses in religion and religious observances at the request of the parents would be struck down. The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs in his submission earlier today gave the opinion that clearly term 17 as amended would enjoy the protection from the charter.
For the benefit of the member for St. John's East I would also make reference to one of the expert and legal opinions that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador obtained answering the question could a provision of the charter or another part of the Constitution invalidate the rights set out in term 17. The answer was no.
The Supreme Court of Canada has stated that one constitutional provision cannot be used to invalidate a provision in another part of the Constitution. Term 17 is part of the Constitution of Canada. In provinces where the courts have ruled that religious observances such as the Lord's Prayer cannot be held in the public school, there is no constitutional protection comparable to that in term 17.
That opinion was provided to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador not by a Liberal or someone that could be questioned, but rather by a former cabinet minister, the Hon. John Crosbie. Therefore, I think the member for St. John's East would give that legal opinion some recognition.
In today's debate, we are hearing a lot about minority rights, namely whether the amendments to term 17 are really a matter of minority rights. We must remember that the situation in Newfoundland and Labrador is not the same as in the other provinces. First, Newfoundland and Labrador never had a public school system. It is very difficult to determine who makes up the minorities and the majority. For there to be a minority, there has to be a majority.
It is very difficult in Newfoundland and Labrador where, before the latest amendments to term 17, some 96 per cent of the population enjoyed denominational rights. Some of these denominations were included in a school system, but only about 4 per cent of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador did not have denominational rights. It is a bit difficult to say today that in the effort to amend term 17 the rights of minorities are at stake.
In addition, regarding the results of the referendum, it is very difficult to know how the various groups voted. There was no way to find out. In fact, when Minister Grimes, the Newfoundland and Labrador minister of education, appeared before the committee, he indicated that, in the first referendum in 1995, the premier at the time, Clyde Wells, wrote to all denominational groups, to all the leaders of religious groups, including the Catholics and the Pentacostals, to ask them if they agreed with a proposal to have every voter indicate their religion upon arriving at the polling station so that the voting pattern of each religious group could be known.
Minister Grimes told us that Premier Wells never did get a response. When Premier Tobin proposed the second referendum, there was no question of it because it had already been determined that the leaders of the churches were not interested in finding out how their members were going to vote.
As well, it can be seen that the Catholics, at 37%, are the most numerous of all the denominational groups. It is still hard to grasp how that group can be described as a minority, when it represents 37% of the population.
In the case of the Catholics, it is fairly evident in my opinion with the Catholics representing 37% of the population, if they had turned out and voted en masse to protect their denominational rights, they may not have won the referendum but certainly the result would not have been 73%. The Pentecostal community represents 7% of the population. It is more difficult to determine what the turnout was there. In fact we had much speculation about it at the committee but there is no way of determining for certain.
Appendix 1 to the committee's report is the results of the Newfoundland referendum of September 1997. It is broken down by percentage of the population who voted, the percentage of people who voted yes, the percentage of people who voted no, the percentage of the Roman Catholic population and the Pentecostal population for each of the various polling stations.
Looking at it quickly, one can see that in the areas where the Pentecostal population is the highest represented, for instance Baie Verte where the population is 25%, the one that strikes me the most, is the voter turnout was 45.2% which is below the average. In a polling station where the Pentacostals were fairly well represented the turnout of the vote was not any higher. In fact the percentage of the vote for yes was 57.9.
Similarly in Exploits, there was 26% Pentecostal population, 53% turnout which was about on the average, but again 63% voted yes. The riding of Lewisporte, 34% Pentecostal population, 57% a little over the average turnout and 59% of the voters voted yes.
Even in the ridings where the Pentacostals were more highly represented than in other ridings, one can see that there is still fairly strong support for the resolution.
It is very difficult to subscribe to the argument that what we are dealing with is a minority rights issue, that the rights of the minority are not being respected. I do not consider it a minority rights issue. I consider it a question of denominational rights which had been entrenched in the Constitution. Yes, one should not go about the business of amending the Constitution without giving it serious consideration, but I do not see in this case that it is a question where minority rights are being disregarded and the will of the majority is being imposed over them.
Indeed this is a very tough decision. It is a very tough issue. Certainly the members of the committee, including those who supported the majority report to make a recommendation to the House and to the Senate that the requested resolution be passed, had a great deal of empathy and sympathy for those people who came before the committee and indicated that they did not wish to see these denominational rights extinguished.
I was impressed by the evidence that we heard at the committee by the Newfoundland Human Rights Association and the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. These two groups exist to defend minority rights, to defend minorities. Both of these groups were strong advocates in supporting the resolution. I do not see where it can really be seen to be an abuse of minority rights when the very associations that are there to protect minority rights are indeed supporting it.
They were quite candid in giving their testimony before the committee. They said that they were in a very unusual position for them. They usually oppose government legislation or government resolutions, they rarely ever defend them. But in this case, they took that position.
I was impressed earlier this afternoon when the Leader of the Official Opposition made his intervention on this issue. He expressed those same concerns of sympathy and empathy for the people and the groups whose rights would be extinguished by this. There is no doubt that everyone understood that. If anyone heard or read Premier Tobin's speech on the night that he announced the referendum, it was very clear and everyone knew that denominational rights were being extinguished.
In spite of that, the Leader of the Official Opposition has taken the position that in this case because freedom of religion will still exist, because of the respect for the will of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador he personally is taking the position of supporting this.
I think it is a very difficult process that many of us have had to go through but sometimes in your gut you just know the right thing to do. I think those of us who are prepared to support this resolution have come to that position through that process.
The last point I want to deal with was the question of precedent. The concern is that by the Parliament of Canada, the House of Commons and the Senate supporting this resolution and in effect extinguishing denominational rights, we are setting a precedent that would apply to other provinces should they make similar requests. This is something the government has been very clear on, that any further requests for constitutional amendments will be looked at on their own merits.
I would submit there is no other province that has an education system similar in any way to that of Newfoundland and Labrador. It is a totally different situation and there is no point in getting into the niceties between legal and political precedents. I do not see where there would be anything that anyone could bring forward to argue that because this constitutional amendment is being granted for Newfoundland and Labrador the Parliament of Canada is bound in any way to grant a similar amendment for dealing with educational rights, denominational rights in other provinces.
For those reasons, I encourage all members to support the resolution.