House of Commons Hansard #144 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was copyright.

Topics

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

The Speaker

The question is on Motion No. 6. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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3:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

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3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

The next question is on Motion No. 44. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

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3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

We will now move to Group No. 5.

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3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Gaston Leroux Bloc Richmond—Wolfe, QC

moved:

Motion No. 7

That Bill C-32, in Clause 18, be amended by adding after line 2 on page 30 the following:

"29.21 Section 29.5, subsections 29.6(1), 29.7(1) and 29.7(3), section 30, subsections 30.2(1), (2) and (5) and section 30.5 do not apply in relation to works, performers' performances, sound recordings or communication signals that form part of the repertoire of a collective society."

Motion No. 54

That Bill C-32, in Clause 50, be amended by adding after line 32 on page 81 the following:

"77.1 (1) Notwithstanding section 77, where the act for which a licence is being sought is administered by a collective society referred to in section 70.1, a ) the application shall be made to the collective society; b ) the collective society shall determine whether the conditions set out in subsection 77(1) have been met; c ) the collective society shall have the power to issue a licence; and d ) the terms of the licence issued by the collective society shall not be more onerous than those set out in the society's licensing scheme.

(2) Where the applicant and the collective society are unable to agree on the royalties to be paid for the right to do the act or on their related terms and conditions, either of them may apply to the Board to fix the royalties and their related terms and conditions pursuant to subsection 70.2(1).

(3) Subsections 77(2), (3) and (4) apply, with such modifications as the circumstances require, to applications made pursuant to subsection (1)."

Motion No. 57

That Bill C-32, in Clause 53.1, be amended by replacing lines 21 to 23 on page 93 with the following:

"53.1 Notwithstanding subsection 67.1(2), section 70.13 and subsections 71(3) and 83(4) of the Copyright Act, as enacted by sections 45, 46 and 50 of this Act, the"

Mr. Speaker, I would like to talk at this stage about the amendments in Group No. 5 for a very specific reason, which is that the collective societies are the issue, the focus of recognition in this bill.

It was in 1988 that we recognized and expanded the collective societies. SOCAN is one that is particularly well known.

When the bill was tabled, we immediately drew the government's attention to the exceptions in the bill, because it concerns the recognition of moral and economic copyright. The new bill-phase II of the modernization effort-provided for a great many additional exceptions, including educational institutions, museums, libraries and archives, thereby seriously undermining the rights of authors and creators.

We drew the government's attention to and criticized this aspect of the bill, which was very detrimental to creators in releasing some major sectors from the obligation to negotiate with authors and to recognize copyright, because everyone could now retrench and hide behind the law. What we said is that it promotes irresponsibility. They took away people's responsibility by inviting them to negotiate with authors or with the collective societies representing copyright holders.

This morning, I said these exceptions were like a huge black cloud hanging over the bill. At this point I would like to mention what two groups, one group and one person in particular, who appeared before the committee had to say about what the exceptions meant for them. Quebec artists represented by their collective society came to tell us that it was truly a unacceptable step backward. Margaret Atwood, very well known in English Canada, described the exceptions as outright theft of copyright.

Having heard the observations of collective societies and of artists, we put great effort into trying to present, first of all for us, for the Bloc Quebecois, an amendment to the effect that the exceptions not apply where there is a collective society.

The government has really made progress in trying to reduce the number of exceptions, to keep them to a minimum, but their efforts notwithstanding, we are returning to the charge in the House today and calling on the government to listen to reason and to agree to full recognition of collective societies, to agree that where such societies have been set up, exceptions should not apply.

With respect to exceptions, we think it important to point out, first, that they are the most negative aspect of the bill, although we have managed to reduce their impact, and second that allowing exceptions is expropriation of copyright. And this needs to be said.

I call on the government to support the Bloc Quebecois amendments and recognize the usefulness of collective societies, which for a number of years now have truly done a good job. The Copyright Board recognizes that collective societies are doing a good job, that this approach, which is still in its early days, should be extended and, above all, should recognize the right of authors, creators and artists to negotiate their own works. Their own moral and economic rights must be recognized throughout the bill. I urge the government to support the Bloc Quebecois amendments.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I probably never recognized before the differences in the thought processes between the Bloc Quebecois and other members of the House.

The Bloc Quebecois, with the greatest respect, seems to see collectives, no matter which area of society we are talking about, as being the answer. It makes me think of some of the stories we see in the English news media of the language police in Quebec. The concept of language police outside the province of Quebec is so far from the minds of people outside Quebec that we cannot even get our minds around it. Perhaps it is an indicator of a different background, a different approach to living together that the Bloc Quebecois and the Parti Quebecois are actually exhibiting.

This is an attempt by the Bloc Quebecois to create more teeth for collectives. It does not take into account the reality that there is presently a difference in terms of collectives among artists, composers and authors in Quebec, how they have banded together, versus artists, composers and authors in other provinces.

I recognize the member's motivation. He has clearly stated it. He sees collectives as being the cornerstone of enforcement for the bill.

There are a lot of things that businesses are finding very onerous in terms of continued government infringement through regulations and inspectors among other things. The other day a person from an asphalt and concrete plant was telling me he had 35 different inspections and fees. If we consider the area we are discussing, which is more in the area of people who are using the creations of various people, we see inspectors coming in, more and more paperwork, and more and more big brotherism.

The purpose of the copyright bill is to create a situation where the authors and composers of work are properly compensated for their intellectual and creative property. There is a place for organizations such as SOCAN. There are successful collectives that have worked their way into a good working relationship with the users of the works of the people they represent.

However, this is a further encroachment into business and the people who want to enjoy these works. It is another regulation and another level of bureaucracy, albeit not directly a government level of bureaucracy. It is something I have an unbelievable amount of difficulty with.

I happen to disagree most profoundly with the presentation made by Margaret Atwood at our committee hearings. I would like to parenthesize for a second.

Speaking of exceptions, I took some exception to the notion put forward by the Bloc heritage critic that the heritage critic for the Reform Party, namely myself, had not participated in the hearings and in the committee process. The reason I took exception was that I have a totally different recollection of the process. I recall that he and I, while we were coming at these things from different points of view very frequently, nonetheless are part of a functioning committee where it was the Bloc, it was Reform or it was the Liberal members and we were working together and indeed we did spend many countless hours together listening to input from people.

I think it is unfortunate that because I visualized the rapid fire conclusion of the committee process that was forced by the minister of heritage, and I would not dignify that process because it was a process out of control, I find it really unfortunate that the Bloc member would suggest that Reform had not been part of the process in any event.

The point I am trying to drive at with respect to this proposed amendment to Bill C-32 in the simplest possible terms is this. We must have the ability to create within copyright law a proper balance, truly a balance, a balance between people who are contributing to our society by their creative genius and the people who enjoy those works or the people who indeed are using those works such as people who are using them for commercial purposes. This is all part of what the heritage committee even now is talking about doing in terms of the definition of Canadian culture.

To my mind the simplest definition of Canadian culture is what Canadians do, just those three words. What Canadians do to my mind is the simplest, most profound definition of what Canadian culture is. Canadians have access to architecture, to writings, to music, to all sorts of things that are created by their fellow Canadians and they form part of Canadian culture and those creations, whatever they may be, are part of the intrinsic value of who we are as Canadians and what our nation truly represents.

By so doing the interesting problem that is created is that when those creations, whatever they may be, get out into the public domain, they become a legitimate part of the public domain. We have to have a balance between the people we will call the consumers of those creations versus the artists who create those works, whatever they may be.

By the insertion of a heavy handed and dare I say a police like attitude toward policing the Copyright Act, in particular now that the Copyright Act has gone to such a gross imbalance in favour of the artists, authors and composers, by creating even more teeth in a very heavy handed collective way, I fear that we are going to end up killing the goose that is creating the golden egg. Truly it is the creativity and the greatness of Canadian artists that we are here to

try to balance, what they are creating against those who want to use that work that is in the public domain.

Therefore I say in conclusion that there is no possible way that I would see myself recommending to the Reform Party that we support these clauses proposed by the member from the Bloc.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Restigouche—Chaleur New Brunswick

Liberal

Guy Arseneault LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise to debate Group No. 5 of the amendments. There are three amendments here, Motions Nos. 7, 54 and 57.

Bill C-32 introduces a number of exceptions to facilitate access and reduce costs for the benefit of public institutions and persons suffering from perceptual disabilities.

To ensure access for certain types of users of copyright materials, the Copyright Act recognizes certain exceptions for reasons of public interest. The exceptions contained in Bill C-32 respond to the real concerns from certain types of users and, in some cases, the bill stipulates that certain exceptions do not apply where there exists a collective which can negotiate a blanket licence for the use of those works.

The Bloc Quebecois has tabled amendments which would extend this principle to all exceptions. This, in the government's view, would nullify the very exceptions the government has been promising to reintroduce over the past nine years. The government believes that the collective management of rights is a cost effective and efficient means of enhancing access to works.

The government will therefore continue to encourage the collective management of rights but in certain circumstances, such as those that are described in the bill, the government believes that exceptions are required.

With this group of amendments, I think we have to be very straightforward with regard to the tactics that are being used in this House today to debate certain groups. I am going to give an example. Here we have Group No. 5, Motions Nos. 7, 54 and 57. The Bloc Quebecois is in favour of these motions and want them passed. The Reform critic for Canadian heritage has stood up and said they are not ready to support that. The parliamentary secretary for Canadian heritage is standing in his place now saying that we are not ready to support it either.

There are some very serious debates that have to be done on Bill C-32, debates that members want to hear, the ephemeral transfer format. Unfortunately they only occur in Group No. 7. It is a very long list of amendments. I am anxious to hear what members have to say about those amendments because I think they go a long way in satisfying the Reform Party and our critics with regard to when the bill was first tabled in the House. That was the biggest concern we heard from the Reform Party with regard to ephemeral transfer format.

We heard other concerns from the Bloc with regard to the creator's side, so we tried to strike a balance. At this point I see no need for Reform members to reiterate over and over again that they are against these three and for government members to reiterate over and over that they are against them. I think we should let Bloc Quebecois members explain again why they are in agreement and convince us that they want to go with this. I would certainly be ready to put the question now.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

March 13th, 1997 / 3:50 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is too bad some members are not paying attention. When you recognize somebody on debate why are they asking for the question?

The parliamentary secretary has pointed out that we are debating Group No. 5, Motions Nos. 7, 54 and 57. He has also insisted that anybody who does stand up and debate should not go off on a tangent and should not elaborate on anything else. They should stick to the issue.

Now all of a sudden they are applying the narrowest sense of the terms and rules of this House which, up until now, certainly a lot of members and the Speakers who have monitored the debate have given a lot of discretionary variance to for members to bring up any particular issue on these amendments that we are debating.

What concerns me is that we have a process and a system in the House of Commons whereby we have three stages to a bill and after second reading it goes to committee. It can go to committee after first reading for debate and discussion. Going through the fine print is the responsibility of standing committees. It is their responsibility to try to improve and point out flaws in bills and to make sure that the interpretation of all members and all parties is the same so that when the bill becomes law Canadian citizens can understand it.

When people look at an issue, when they want to know what the law is, what they can or cannot do, they can pick up a bill, for example Bill C-32, go to this page, which is being amended with these three motions, read it and understand it.

I am not a lawyer. Maybe I should be. I will bet a dollar to a doughnut that if we took this bill and some of these amendments with the language being used to lawyers out there who are going to be hired to interpret the copyright act, to interpret who has to pay and who does not have to pay, to interpret collective agencies, who qualifies and who does not, what they can charge for and what they cannot charge for, there will be a difference of opinion out there. They will not understand the wording.

It is amazing to me that we try to introduce bills that are very complicated. Instead of using fewer words, being clear and concise, they carry a lot of baggage.

I have given this preamble for a purpose. I had a fight about seven or eight years ago with the people of SOCAN. There was another one. It was called PROCAN. We had two collectives coming after my butt for running a nightclub in Calgary, playing music and having live entertainment. These people professed that they had the right to charge me money because I was playing music.

I said that makes sense. I guess it is performing arts and I have to pay it. I looked into it. The reason I bring up this story up is for a better understanding of why I would be voting against the Bloc member's amendments on this bill. The more collective agencies there are, the more people who claim they have the power to protect the rights of the originators of copyright information or copyright material, the more confusion there is.

When I had my nightclub, they came to me and said "here are the fees". They had a list of the artists and entertainers. Because I was playing this type of music, because my establishment had a certain number of seats and a certain amount of square footage, the fee was x .

I wondered what right they had to do that. I questioned their right to do that and what law forced me to do that. After all, if I had a live performer in my club, I paid them perhaps $5,000 a night. I paid good salaries because we only brought in the best entertainers.

Mr. Ian Tyson was a favourite of mine. We had him in our club quite often. I paid this fee to the artist. Then I questioned why, on top of that, I had to pay a performing arts fee to SOCAN and PROCAN.

When I buy an album or a tape, we are all paying the fee for the artist. The artist makes money from live performances, records, tapes and videos that are put together. Members may argue that they might not get enough of a percentage from it but they have agents who negotiate that.

Certainly someone like Garth Brooks makes a heck of a lot more now than he did when he first started. Yes, it was an opportunity for me at one time in my club to book him for $5,000 a week. Now he is getting $150,000 an hour or more, who knows what he is paid now.

These collective agencies then come forward and say "because you are playing this kind of music, on top of what these people make, we have to collect more money from you because you are repeating it". Radio stations play their music. They have to pay.

Then along comes another association called PROCAN, another collective agency. The Bloc is recommending we create more. It says to me "you have to pay because you are playing this kind of music, these people originated from the States, it is a bit of a crossover".

I said "I am not paying. I am already obligated. Some other association said I had to pay it. Before I pay anybody, I want to see the lists of the artists you represent". I made both of them bring me the list. I had a file so thick of all the different artists and all the different venues they represented. When I cross referenced it with the other list, lo and behold some names of artists were on the two separate lists. I asked how they could be charging me double. Either one had them or the other had them. I raised quite a fuss and I refused to pay both of them until they got it clear who represented which artists.

That lasted for a year and a half. I was able to get my back up and directly fight the system. Through that I may have been one of the people in Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Vancouver who forced these people to get their act together and create just the one.

My point to the Bloc member is that the fewer collective agencies there are the better, and the clearer it is who you have to pay for the rights to use somebody's music or work. I agree with the principle that a fee should be paid for that since after all artists are at the low end of the totem pole and they get the least. I understand that principle and I would certainly support making sure they get some money.

Let us not go overboard. In the process of trying to protect these artists, performers and professional entertainers there are all these fat middle people called agents, producers and everybody else who take the cream off the top. The tougher you make it for the person who tries to hire these people to perform on a stage in theatre, the more expensive they are.

One of the reasons the philharmonics across the country are in trouble-they raise some money but it is hard to raise money and hard to pay them-is because the performers are asking too much. You can bankrupt the system. If we go overboard with this copyright bill by having too many collective agencies, which will confuse the general public that uses the copyright material, we will be in trouble.

The point in my intervention on these motions is to argue why it is not wise to have a number of collective agencies. They become like tax collectors. Lord knows we have enough tax collectors in this country and we pay enough taxes already. The point is that yes, we are interested in protecting the creators of original material and yes, we are interested in protecting intellectual property. Those people should be rewarded for their efforts, especially if they have talent and if they create a reusable product.

I do not know all aspects of this bill. I was not on the standing committee when it was debated clause by clause, but I hope that somewhere along the line the members of the committee and the parliamentary secretary recognize that there are a lot of people involved here and everybody has his or her hand out. I hope we are able to tackle the layer of fat of the different people who want a bunch of money before the people who should get it get their fair

share. By going too far in protecting artists are we satisfied and clear in our mind? Do members of all parties have an understanding before this bill gets passed that we are not just padding the pockets of the producers, the agents and all these other people rather than the artists?

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

Mr. Speaker, as we go through these groupings today it is interesting to try to work back and forth between the groupings from the Order Paper that were dumped on us this morning, the bill we have in front of us and the comments.

As the parliamentary secretary pointed out, it is unfortunate that this part of the debate does not lend itself to questions and answers. Maybe a guy could support some of this stuff more willingly if he could ask a couple of questions about it at this stage. It is a very lengthy amendment and it is difficult to try to figure out.

I wonder if there would be unanimous consent to ask for questions and answers to be part of this debate so that we could ask the hon. member from the Bloc whether that was-

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is there unanimous consent?

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4:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Guy Arseneault Liberal Restigouche—Chaleur, NB

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.