Debates of March 13th, 1997

Copyright Act

[Lyle Vanclief, Liberal, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I think there were some members who came into the House after you read the question and they voted. There were others who came into the House after you read the question who did not vote. I would suggest that those who came in, took their seat and voted after the question was read have their name removed from the list.

[Joe Comuzzi, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Nipigon, ON]

Madam Speaker, I was one of those who came in late and did not vote and I would like my vote recorded with my party.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Winnipeg—St. James, MB]

Madam Speaker, on account of the vote being held ahead of schedule, I missed the vote. Had I been here I would have voted with my party.

[Judy Bethel, Liberal, Edmonton East, AB]

Madam Speaker, had I been in the House when the vote was taken I would have voted with my party.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Erie, ON]

Madam Speaker, I also came in late. I guess the vote was moved up a bit. Had I been here I would have voted with my party as well.

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Madam Speaker, I was late, but had I been here I would have voted with my party.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am in the same situation as the member for Bourassa.

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Madam Speaker, had I been here on time I would have voted with my party on the motion.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Speaker, I arrived here on time and I did vote with my party.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, when I arrived at my seat, the whips were just passing by. In view of the technicality that I may not have been in my seat at the proper time, I did vote in support of the motion but if I was late then I would stand on record as having supporting this motion.

[Ted White, Reform, North Vancouver, BC]

Madam Speaker, I was here on time. I just want to make sure you know I did vote with my party.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Swift Current—Maple Creek—Assiniboia, SK]

Madam Speaker, since a 30 minute bell is now a 24 minute period I would like to go on record as supporting this motion.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Madam Speaker, a further problem we have compounding this vote is that some members who voted before the announcement of the vote have left the Chamber again. The Minister of National Defence is one but there are perhaps others. I do not think that is in order. I am not sure what we should do about that.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

In order to vote, members have to be in their seats at the moment that the question is put and stay in their seats until the result of the vote is pronounced by the clerk.

[Jim Gouk, Reform, Kootenay West—Revelstoke, BC]

Madam Speaker, due to the confusion because of the timing of the bell and the early walk by the whips and because it appears that some members voted who were not in their seats in accordance with the directive you just put, and that some members left after voting before the results were read, I move that we vote again.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Madam Speaker, I know it is your duty of course to maintain order and to make sure things are done in an orderly fashion. There is some problems with members having left before the vote was announced.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

On that point of order I have already clarified. There are some members who have left and there were some members who were not in the House when I called the question and still they did not rise. We will now go to the result of the question.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the clarification of the rules. I would like now to ask you what we do if the rules have been contravened. What do we do if several people have voted on the motion and have left the House? If we know of such people, or if

there are such people, how will you know who they are? I know the rules, but how will you know who they are if they have left the House? What do you do about that?

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

I will now ask the clerk to read the results of the vote and thereafter we will proceed with any other points of order.

(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the following division:)

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

I declare the motion defeated.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Madam Speaker, I still would like you to explain how we know for use if that vote was the vote which accurately reflected the vote of the number of people who stayed in their seats until the vote was announced. I mentioned one person specifically who left the Chamber before the announcement of the vote. That person, of course, cannot be counted. Because of what took place, I do not know if that person was counted or not. I brought it to your attention but I am not sure if it is included in the 84 or not.

I would like you to let me know how I can be sure who got called and who voted where because some people left in the middle of it.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

It is not a written rule but a question of convention and I think of respect for the responsibility of the House to be in your seat at the time the question is called and to remain in your seat. It is a question of respect and convention. It does not invalidate the results of the vote.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would like to comment on the point of order raised by my colleague from the Reform Party. I think the only way to respond to his question is to see tomorrow who voted. And if they think someone was absent, they can then raise it in the House. I imagine that the person who is absent will say he was, and we will see whether that changes the outcome.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Madam Speaker, I think what we are seeing here today is the fruit of three years of sloppiness with respect to this rule. It used to be very hard and fast, even though not a rule but a convention, that people would have to be in the House and would not be able to leave until the results of the vote were read.

I have noticed that in this Parliament, and maybe even toward the end of the last Parliament, this rule became more and more relaxed. People were coming in and going out. We cannot decide, all of a sudden, that today we are going to enforce the convention that, frankly, almost everyone has been ignoring for three years.

If we want to restore that convention, I think it would be a good idea but we need to say collectively that we want to restore and respect that convention.

In the same vein there is another convention, that there is a30 minute bell and the vote is taken after 30 minutes. If we want to start playing around with that convention, as we did today, through the collusion between the government and the official opposition, then we will have a real problem on our hands. I do not sit on committees, but for the sake of people who are on committees, who are hearing witnesses, they may proceed to hear a witness because they know they have 15 minutes, but when they get here they find the vote has already taken place. Do we want to introduce another

dimension of unpredictability into what is already an unpredictable place? I think that would be a serious mistake.

I ask you, Madam Speaker, to reflect on this but I also ask all members of the House to reflect on this. Once we start to play around with a convention it slips away and we have another layer of chaos on top of an already very chaotic place. I see what has happened today as being very regrettable.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

I thank the hon. member for his point of order. We will do some research on this convention and we will report back to the House on our findings.