Debates of April 11th, 1997

Fisheries

[Mike Scott, Reform, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, fisheries management in Canada has reached a new low. In spite of massive expenditures by DFO the Atlantic groundfishery is in ruins, capelin stocks are dangerously low, Pacific salmon stocks have fallen dramatically, and now the Bay of Fundy scallop beds are all but wiped out.

It is getting so bad that the portfolio of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans will soon be changed to just the minister of oceans because we are fast running out of fish.

Digby scallop fishermen who have families to feed and mortgage payments to make want to know what the minister will do for them. Is the minister prepared to shoulder his responsibility and make responsible and rational management decisions?

Scallop fishermen in Digby who have been occupying DFO offices for the past eight days want answers. They want to know that they will be able to earn a living in an industry that they pioneered 75 years ago.

Parkinson Awareness Month

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House and all Canadians that April has been designated Parkinson Awareness Month by the Parkinson Foundation of Canada. In addition, April 11 marks World Parkinson Day.

Parkinson is a chronic brain disorder. It is the most prevalent movement disorder and one of the most common neurological disorders affecting some 100,000 Canadians.

The Parkinson Foundation of Canada was established in 1965. It is made up of more than 100 chapters and support groups nationwide.

The foundation is dedicated to funding research into the cause, treatment and ultimate cure for Parkinson; providing training, counselling and workshops for patients, caregivers and health care providers; developing and distributing material; and heightening public awareness about Parkinson.

I invite the House to join me in wishing the Parkinson Foundation of Canada and its many volunteers a very successful Parkinson Awareness Month and World Parkinson Day.

Human Rights

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Yesterday, before the UN Commission on Human Rights in Geneva, Canada refused to co-sponsor a Danish resolution condemning human rights violations in China. Yet, since the massacre in Tiananmen Square, Canada had never failed to co-sponsor

similar resolutions. Canada has apparently given up defending human rights internationally.

In light of the fact that China is systematically, blatantly and continually violating human rights throughout its territory, and particularly in Tibet, can the minister tell us why the Canadian government did not support Denmark's action, which condemns the failure to respect human rights in China?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we have not refused. The hon. member is totally wrong in his statement.

A resolution was tabled by Denmark with a number of co-sponsors. We are still looking at the question of whether we would be a co-sponsor but we have not refused in any way. It is a matter under consideration.

The Prime Minister already said a few days ago, if the hon. member had paid attention, that they would be examined by a meeting of cabinet ministers probably at the beginning of next week.

In the meantime we have also indicated our intention to vote for the resolution. The Prime Minister said that in Washington in his speech Wednesday. The hon. member should check his facts.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, for the past seven years, China has succeeded in blocking any vote concerning its human rights violations. But the real vote, the one he is talking about, is when a country sponsors a resolution.

Is the minister telling us that, with all these changes, these things he will be deciding about in the future, and so on, Canada has caved in to the blackmail and threats of political and trade reprisals from this country?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I repeat what I said. We were faced, as was everybody else, with a decision by the French to break the consensus established by the European Union, the major sponsor of the resolution.

That certainly changed the circumstances in which one would want to look at the resolution. Because of the trip to Washington and other activities, we did not have the opportunity to have a cabinet meeting on the matter. The Prime Minister indicated that there would be a meeting at the beginning of this week at which time we would make a decision.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it has only been going on for seven years, so I can understand that the minister has not had the time to hold a meeting of his officials.

I find the responses of the government and of the minister this morning most puzzling. If I understand the minister correctly, Canada seems to have abdicated its traditional role as defender of human rights. Otherwise it would have cast its real vote by now, and we would know where it stands. As things are now, we do not know where it stands and are still waiting, despite the importance of the issue.

By refusing to stand up to intimidation by China and by putting the defence of international human rights on the back burner, does the minister agree that Canada is a party to the imprisonment of Chinese political prisoners, and to the detention of the 11th Panchen Lama, the chief spiritual adviser of Tibet?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member is trying to inflame and to exaggerate his position. Unfortunately the hon. member is basing his premise on sheer ignorance.

If he had paid attention rather than to a headline but to the facts, he would know that last week I was in China. I met with Chinese officials. I raised the issue of human rights. I raised the issue of political prisoners. We put them on the table.

Canada maintained a continual constant opinion that we would raise those kinds of issues directly with the Chinese and we did. It is too bad the hon. member does not have the fortitude and the resolve to make the same kind of commitments we are prepared to make.

Violence Against Women

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question as well is directed to the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

We know that Canada played an important role in the world movement of sanctions against apartheid in South Africa. At the beginning of this month, the UN Human Rights Commission published a report in which it urged the international community to take steps to combat violence against women, such as rape and trafficking.

Can the minister tell us the measures he intends to take in response to the publication of this report, which reminds us that violence against women is still considered a form of entertainment or a normal practice in a number of countries?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we certainly share very much both the spirit and the intent of the resolution in Geneva. There are several ways of follow it through. Certainly one would be to ensure that in our domestic situation we take all steps possible. The Minister of Justice has already indicated in the House several times this week that we have a number of initiatives to combat violence against women, in fact violence against all people.

I think the commitment made by the minister is a clear example of the way we want to act domestically.

A second initiative we can take is to work internationally to ensure that there are covenants and that through the work of CIDA and other groups we work within those countries to provide assistance and programs that will assist women and combat violence against women.

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we know that many countries with which the Canadian government has dealings are directly implicated in this serious problem of violence against women.

Does the minister intend to denounce these countries during his upcoming international dealings and in his trade relations with these same countries, and thus maintain the leadership role that Canada has always played with respect to human rights?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I can answer that by way of example. Canada was very instrumental in working with Indonesia for the establishment of an independent human rights commission which is taking on those individual cases by the support we give.

In the discussions we held recently with Cuba on human rights issues, we have agreed to co-sponsor a major meeting in Havana to deal with the questions of rights of women and rights of children.

I have made it very clear and very explicit in the statement on Canada's human rights approach that we believe the most effective way of promoting democracy, human rights and the protection of basic civil liberties is to promote and support those working within the countries to provide the changes within those countries. That is the central trust of our policy.

Justice

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday during question period the justice minister read a letter from the president of CAVEAT, Mrs. de Villiers, while responding to a question about conditional sentencing and the case of rapist Darren Ursel.

By doing so, is the justice minister saying to the House and the victims of this country that Mrs. de Villiers and her organization support a law that allows a convicted rapist to walk free?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I thought the response spoke for itself.

I was asked yesterday about the position of the government in relation to victims. The allegation has been made all week by the hon. member and his colleagues in the Reform Party that the government either does not understand or has not acted in the interests of victims in the criminal justice system.

My purpose in referring to the letter from Priscilla de Villiers, the president of CAVEAT, was to demonstrate that one of the most respected spokespersons for victim rights, who has suffered her own personal tragedy and has turned from that tragedy to make something constructive come out of all that, has looked at the record of the government and has said we have made significant change, that we have demonstrated a willingness to listen and a willingness to act.

I said yesterday, as I say today, that when the people of Canada come to make their choice between the Reform Party and the Liberal government as to who to believe on the issue of victim rights, I believe they will turn to respected and credible third parties such as CAVEAT.

The people of this country will have no difficulty deciding that this is a government which has acted and the Reform Party is absolutely wrong.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the justice minister's reading of Mrs. de Villiers' letter in the House yesterday indicates clearly that the minister remains committed to a law that allows rapists and child sex molestors to walk free and has attempted to defend his position by leaving the impression that the victims of crime support this law as well.

If this impression is wrong and the minister does not really support rapists and violent offenders walking free, will the minister move immediately to amend the Criminal Code to restrict conditional sentencing to non-violent offenders?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, let me make a couple of points.

First, no one would suggest for a moment that anyone, whether it is this government, CAVEAT, I or any other responsible person, favours anything but prison for those who commit serious violent crimes.

My reference to the CAVEAT letter was and is in relation to its commentary on the performance of this government in relation to victims and their rights under the law.

On the subject of conditional sentences, the Criminal Code already contains serious penalties, including life in prison, for those who commit serious violent crimes such as sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault and the like. It is already in the criminal law.

If a court somewhere makes a decision about a sentence in a specific case, if the prosecutor believes that sentence is inappropriate an appeal can be brought and argued and that result may well be changed. It depends on the judgment of the court.

The reference this week has been to a specific case in British Columbia which is before the court of appeal. I ask the hon. member to let the court do its job. The penalties are already in the code. If the penalty in this case was inappropriate the appeal court has all the power to correct that result.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, conditional sentencing has been used in a host of violent cases across this country where the offenders are walking free. It is not simply the case of Mr. Ursel. There are a host of child molestors and violent offenders walking free because of the loophole this justice minister has left in the law through Bill C-41.

Since the justice minister likes to hear and read what victims have to say, I would like to read the words of Jana Rosenfeldt, the sister of one of Clifford Olson's victims:

Actually we met with the justice minister last year. He had a chance to stop this. He basically spit on all the graves of all these kids.

That is how a victim really feels about this justice minister and his great concern about victims of crime.

I ask the justice minister one more time will he do the right thing and amend Bill C-41 to plug the loophole that allows the courts to let rapists and violent offenders to walk free? Will he bring that in? We will support it.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, there are already penalties in the criminal law to provide for lengthy imprisonment, if necessary life imprisonment, for those who commit serious violent crimes.

Monday of last week I proposed and all parties agreed, including my hon. friend, an amendment to the conditional sentence provision that will require the courts to look at sentencing factors in general, including denunciation, when deciding whether conditional sentences are appropriate.

In terms of the hon. member's reference to graves, the party opposite makes it very difficult to engage in rational debate. If its members have succeeded in anything this week it has been to fortify their position as a party of the narrow edge, a party of the extreme, a party that prefers slogans over substance, a party that prefers rhetoric over results. They have made themselves the spectacle this week.

Middle East

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Tension continues to mount in the Middle East where, yesterday, the Israeli defence minister warned that, if friction between Palestinians and the Israeli army continued, Israel would have no trouble taking back Hebron or any other Palestinian city.

Since this statement could inflame the situation and irreversibly topple the peace process arising from the Oslo accords, can the minister tell us what actions Canada intends to take to maintain peace in the Middle East?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we are very concerned about the increasing tensions in the Middle East. We continue to call on all parties to find ways of following the peace process established by Oslo of reconciling differences, of living up to their commitments.

Canada is the chair of the working group on refugees. It is the one working group that came out of the larger peace process that is still functioning. We will be leading a mission into the Middle East shortly to see if we can bring the parties together to work specifically on the refugee issue.

That area is perhaps the most burning source of tension and instability. If we can bring progress about by bringing the parties together on the refugee issue it may contribute in its own way to providing a sense that solutions are possible.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the minister intend, in light of the new context, to renew Canadian opposition to the Israeli plan to build new Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we have always said that any attempt to bring those settlements about runs contrary to the resolutions of the United Nations. We have constantly stated that and our position has not changed.

Justice

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on June 15, 1995 this government invoked time allocation to ram its sentencing bill, Bill C-41, through the House.

Reformers supported the Canadian Police Association in calling for the rejection of this ill conceived piece of legislation. We feared judges would use conditional sentencing inappropriately in cases of violence. Our worst fears have become victims' worst nightmares.

The Bill C-17 amendment the justice minister just referred to only cautions judges to use this so-called tool appropriately. It does not prevent them from using it in cases of violence.

Will the justice minister now admit his mistake and take corrective action to ensure conditional sentencing is never used again in cases of violence?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the conditional sentence provision provides on its face that the court must take into account the safety of the community, the danger to the community, before deciding whether a conditional sentence is appropriate.

By virtue of the amendment that all parties agreed to this past Monday we will add words that require the judge before considering a conditional sentence to take into account the usual factors, including deterrence, denunciation and protection of the community.

The Criminal Code has over 800 sections. Many provide expressly for terms as long as life imprisonment for those who commit crimes of serious violence, including sexual assault and aggravated sexual assault. The tools are there. This government does not sit in the courtrooms to decide cases or pass sentences. It provides the law. The law provides well to deal with violent crime.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on November 4 last year I drew this minister's attention to the misuse of Bill C-41 in three cases involving violence against women. He chose to ignore the facts. One week later, on November 12, Judge Harry Boyle turned Darren Ursel free into the community.

Had the minister acted then rather than mock the question, this travesty of justice need not have occurred.

I will ask the minister the very same question I asked him almost six months ago. Does he believe conditional sentencing, no jail time, is appropriate for rape?