House of Commons Hansard #160 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was organized.

Topics

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

The Chairman

Does the member have a further question?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, I would like to wait until the minister has responded to that.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Mr. Chairman, I have a question and a comment. Earlier, I was relieved when I heard the hon. member for Calgary-Centre, because I was afraid we were getting into something close to a filibuster. That would have been disappointing, I must admit. But the hon. member was most reassuring, and I know his reputation for style and fair play. I really had the feeling that the three parties had reached an agreement to ensure that the bill would be passed as soon as possible.

I am grateful to the minister for recalling what happened in Hochelaga-Maisonneuve. The minister knows how concerned I am about the whole issue of organized crime. I have two comments, since I will not speak again on this bill because I really want us to proceed as quickly as possible.

I had an opportunity, for which I thank the minister and his officials, to ask some questions during a briefing session. I imagine the same opportunity was offered to our Reform Party colleagues. During this session I was able to discuss technical aspects of the bill.

So I would appeal to all members of the House to let us proceed as quickly as possible. I also want to explain to my Reform Party colleagues who are very close to the police community that three major demands made by police associations across the country have been documented in a report.

I would be delighted to table this report which is about the management of the proceeds of crime in Canada, if the House were to give its unanimous consent. One of the document's main recommendations is that there should be aggravating circumstances when an offence is committed in relation to organized crime. I understand why this provision found its way into the bill, and the minister can confirm my statement.

My question to the minister is as follows: Could he ask his officials to make a list of the offences covered by this bill, so that we have a better understanding of the legislation? I do not know whether departmental employees have already done so. I do know that there is a reference to all offences punishable by more than five years imprisonment, and these are mainly offences already included in the Criminal Code. However, to give all members of this House a better understanding of the legislation, it might be useful if the Department of Justice promised to distribute this list before we finish our business or by the end of this week. I think it would be very interesting for all members to have this list.

Finally, I want to make one last appeal to have this bill passed with all due dispatch, and I can assure the minister he will have our full co-operation.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, in the definition the reference is to offences for which there is a maximum of at least five years imprisonment as a punishment. It is for indictable offences with that consequence. It is not only in the Criminal Code but in other federal statutes as well. I am not sure if it would be helpful to provide that list because it is very long.

In terms of penalties, the Criminal Code is divided into a series-to use a word-in which there are groups of offences punishable by six months, two years less a day, two years, five years, ten years, fourteen years, and life. Those are the distinctions in terms of Criminal Code penalties.

Those offences punishable by a maximum of five years on indictment make up a very considerable group both in the code and in other statutes. I do not know that it would be helpful to have that list. What we are trying to do here is give the court a sense of the degree of seriousness to which we are looking when we say that someone is involved in a criminal organization. Therefore we have picked those offences which have the maximum of five years, which are up on the scale. They are not six months or two years plus a day or two years, they are in the medium range of seriousness and beyond. These are significant offences.

In response to the question put by my friend from Crowfoot on the issue of series, I am reminded as I look at the Oxford concise definition of series that the element that would be missing if we used two or more, rather than series, is the element of successive or the temporal relationship between the offences. In other words, if a person committed both offences in the same day, both having to do with the same event, for example, robbery and assault, that would be more than one but they would both be in connection with the same event and would not capture the notion of series in the sense that there would be successive occasions on which such events took

place; a person committed a crime in February but also committed the crime in October and so on.

As we look back over the five year period the notion of series is to connote not only a number, more than one, but that they were successive, in temporal relationship, one to the other, and there was a pattern which demonstrated that on more than one occasion the person had engaged in that criminal conduct. That is what series gives us that two or more would not.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, I do not know if that is going to make this any easier to establish without a definition more definitive than what I just heard from the minister.

The clause indicates what a criminal organization offence is. I ask the justice minister whether the criminal organization offence applies to youth gangs. I do not see that anywhere in the bill. I wonder why this bill is not applicable to youth and, in particular, why the definition of criminal organization does not apply to youth gangs.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, it does. It applies to anybody who is subject to the criminal law, anybody 12 and older. If there are 13-year olds, five or more of them, who formally or informally organize themselves into a group which has as one of its primary activities the commission of an indictable offence for which a maximum of five years imprisonment is provided by Parliament and any or all of whom have engage in a series of such offences over the last five years, regardless of the age of the participants, they could be found to be a criminal organization. A criminal organization offence could be committed regardless of the age of the participants so long as they are subject to the criminal law sanction being 12 years of age or older. There is no distinction here in terms of age.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, perhaps the justice minister could explain why under the Young Offenders Act it is only murder that carries an offence greater than the three years. How would this new sentence apply without a transfer to adult court?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, the Young Offenders Act is only the jeopardy to which the individual young person is subject, but the offence itself is punishable in the Criminal Code by five years or longer. If the offence itself is punishable by a maximum of five years on indictment, then it meets the definition.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, I would like to be clear on this. If the justice minister is saying that the definition of a criminal organization applies to young offenders and also that the criminal organization offence applies, that is different from the legal opinion we have received. It was on short notice, nevertheless it is different.

When I look at this, from my understanding there is no penalty under the YOA that exceeds three years. The person who was charged for manslaughter, the young offender who was involved in the torture death of Sylvain Leduc, received the maximum penalty that could be received under the YOA of three years. That means that individual, for that offence, does not fall within the category of having committed an indictable offence with a penalty of five years or more. That person, with that record, would not fall within the category or definition.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, I do not agree. In reality if the offence carries under the Criminal Code a penalty that is indictable with a maximum of five years or more, then it falls within this definition. The fact that an individual offender, because of the Young Offenders Act, would be subject to a lessor penalty because of their own age is beside the point.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, I want to make this clear. Is the justice minister saying that the young offender who was convicted of manslaughter in the Sylvain Leduc torture death and was granted or given a three year maximum penalty allowed under the YOA falls into one of these categories as a person who has been involved in an indictable offence with a penalty of at least five years imprisonment? Is that what the minister is saying?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, we have to unravel that and put it another way. I think I have the member's point but I do not think we can relate it to that particular crime. It was not alleged that there were other crimes.

If there is a group of five or more persons, formally or informally organized, having as one of their primary activities the commission of indictable offences under the Criminal Code punishable by a maximum of five years or more, and any or all of whom have engaged in a series of such offences over the last five years, they do not fall out of the definition for reason only of their age, that they would personally be subject to a maximum of three years under the Young Offenders Act. My officials take that view and I do as well.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, in order to make it clear for the record as well as for those who may be listening, for this young individual who was sentenced to three years maximum for manslaughter under the YOA, if it could have been established and this bill had been in force prior to the death of Sylvain Leduc, could he have been charged under this new criminal organizational offence?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, this statute is for criminal organizations. I do not know enough about the facts of the case. The member keeps referring to that one case. I would prefer not to talk about a case that is still before the courts.

We are not dealing here with one person committing one offence on an isolated basis. We are talking about criminal organizations which are five or more people dedicated ruthlessly to a life of crime and committing a series of such offences over the last five years.

Then we are talking about criminal organizations and criminal organization offences.

One person committing one offence on a specific occasion is not intended to be caught by this bill.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, this person is alleged to have been a member of Ace Crew, a gang, involved in drug trafficking and in the kidnapping of at least two people, one of whom was tortured to death. If this bill predated the commission of that offence, could that young individual have been convicted and sentenced under this new charge, this new offence that has been created, the criminal organizational offence?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

No.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Why could he not? If the minister is saying these two new definitions, criminal organization and criminal organization offence, would apply to youth gangs, and it was alleged this person was a member of a youth gang, why would it not apply to this young individual who got only three years for manslaughter if this bill had predated the offence? He has said that it would not apply. I do not understand.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, the first thing I will do is expressly decline to discuss the case of Sylvain Leduc. I think it is wrong to talk about that case because it is before the courts.

Let me then go to a broader level of generality and talk about a gang of youths engaged in a series of criminal acts over time. As I have already said to the member, if there is a group, association or other body consisting of five or more persons, whether formally or informally organized, one of whose primary activities is the commission of indictable offences under the Criminal Code or any act of Parliament punishable by a maximum imprisonment of five years or more, and whose members, any or all, have engaged over the last five years in a series of such offences, then that would be a criminal organization and it would not fall short of the definition only because members were below the age of 18, so long as they were 12 years of age or more. The determination of the predicate offences would be in reference to the penalties provided in the Criminal Code.

The fact that the Young Offenders Act put a cap of three years as the maximum for any individual because of their age alone would not disqualify them from the definition if the other elements were present. I said that earlier and I cannot say it more clearly than that.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, the justice minister has certainly confused me on this issue. Would a young offender have to be raised to adult court for the indictable offence that has been committed before this new bill is applicable to him?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, if the crown were seeking the 14 year penalty then it would have to seek transfer to adult court. If it were content to seek a maximum of three years, the matter could be dealt with in youth court.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, there seems to be an anomaly here that youth gangs could still be sentenced under the Criminal Code and that this additional sentence which will be served concurrently under this new section can be applied only if the individual is tried in adult court. Am I correct in saying that? Is that my understanding of what the justice minister has told the committee?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, as with all young offender matters, if the crown wants penalties under the Criminal Code to apply, it has to seek transfer of the young offender from youth court to adult court. It does not change the nature or the character of the organization. It permits the police to make use of the provisions. But if a person is going to be sentenced as an adult they first have to be transferred to adult court.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, if I gather what the minister is saying, at least the penalties cannot apply to young offenders unless they are transferred to adult court. Is that true?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Allan Rock Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, yes, as in every other instance.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Chairman, if the court decides on this reverse onus that the justice minister brought in with Bill C-37, that the individual should not be tried in adult court, then they are immune to this law.