Debates of April 9th, 1997

Rights Of Victims

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, all week we have been listening to the justice minister try to explain why he cannot enact the victims bill of rights. "We have already taken care of victims", he said. "It is a provincial jurisdiction", he said.

These excuses do not sit well with victims like Theresa McCuaig or Debbie Mahaffy. They say the only thing that is holding up the victims bill of rights is the minister's lack of political will.

Why will the justice minister not muster up the political will to bring forward the victims bill of rights and let the House pass it before the next election?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I want to make clear to the hon. member opposite the government fully agrees that everything that can be done should be done to improve the system to make it more sensitive to the interests of victims.

It is for that very reason I voted in favour of the resolution to send to the committee the suggestion that a committee of the House look at a victims bill of rights. I voted in favour of that. Members of the Reform Party on that committee know the committee has been busy with work and is now addressing the issue.

I want to make it very clear that I am in full agreement with anyone who says the system can be improved and should be improved for the benefit of victims. That is what we are in business to do.

The hon. member will find in this government people who are prepared to make every effort to make the system more responsive to the needs of victims.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the House will have noticed over the last three years that this minister can handle academic questions on jurisprudence but when the question calls for feeling and for practical action on behalf of victims the minister does not have it.

If the justice minister were a man of action, if he believed in his heart that victims need their rights respected, he would bring forward the victims bill of rights for passage now before the next federal election.

When will the justice minister stop giving unfeeling, academic answers to this question and bring forward a victims bill of rights to the House?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member must not mistake dispassionate reasoned analysis for an unfeeling approach to these issues.

The hon. member will find that this Minister of Justice more than any other in the past has spent time with victims of crime, has made it his business to meet with victims of crime, has listened directly to their stories of tragedy, and as a result has acted to improve the law of the country.

I have already made clear that in its dedication to improving the system for victims the government takes a back seat to no one. We are in favour of looking at a bill of rights. The committee is doing that now at our request.

We intend to build on what we have done through legislation so far to improve the system of justice for the interests of victims of crimes.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, victims do not want time with the minister. They want a victims bill of rights.

A right is a right is a right. Victims have a right to be informed about the judicial process. They have a right to have their voices heard at all stages of that process and at parole hearings. They have a right to know about potential plea bargains and other backroom deals between lawyers. They have the right to be protected from intimidation, harassment and interference.

Why does the justice minister not simply recognize these fundamental rights now and bring forward a victims bill of rights before the federal election?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, we will await the report of the committee which is hard at work on that subject now.

Yesterday the committee heard moving and important testimony from victims on what is needed. Let the committee report and then the government will respond.

I will not allow the hon. member to challenge my commitment or the commitment of the government to the interests of victims. We sit in the House every day, most of us, and watch members of the Reform Party shamelessly exploit the tragedy of others, shamelessly exploit the sadness of victims. It is a sad and frankly a disgusting spectacle.

We have shown by action over the last 3.5 years that we are prepared to step up and act where necessary to improve through legislation the justice system for victims.

Members opposite should bear in mind that we take a back seat to no one when it comes to commitment to victims.

Constitution

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in 1993, New Brunswick asked the Canadian government to proceed with a constitutional amendment. At the time, the official opposition in the New Brunswick legislature had voted against the application. Nevertheless, the federal government acceded to New Brunswick's request.

Does the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs realize that, by requesting legal or regulatory guarantees for Quebec's anglophone minority, he is not treating Quebec the same as the other provinces, as he knows perfectly well that the others would refuse to consider such guarantees for the francophone minority? Does the minister have the courage to rise in the House and admit that he is setting a different standard for Quebec, yes or no?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should be ashamed to rise in this House.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

In the case of New Brunswick, it was very obviously an amendment that would expand the rights of the minority. All parties in the provincial legislature were in favour: the Liberals, the Conservatives and the NDP. The only party not in favour was the COR, a party created especially to fight bilingualism. It is a sorry sight to see the Leader of the Official Opposition rise in the House as he did yesterday, and again today, to use COR as an argument in this debate.

[The Speaker]

My dear colleagues, we do not talk about courage or shame in this House. I would ask you not to use those words.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, apparently, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is continuing the work of his mentor, Pierre Elliott Trudeau. He keeps trying to diminish the powers of the National Assembly by giving the federal government the power to intervene directly in the case of a reform made by Quebecers for Quebecers.

Does the minister agree that his approach, actions and words are such that he is giving the anglophone minority in Quebec a right of veto?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, did I understand correctly? Would Quebecers draft a constitutional amendment affecting a minority on such serious

issues as language, religion and schools without the support of that minority? They would not.

It is very sad to see the Bloc Quebecois make such statements on behalf of Quebecers. Quebecers are tolerant. They will never go along with this.

Rights Of Victims

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have been asking the Minister of Justice all week about victims rights. He said that bills like Bill C-41, which introduced conditional sentences, help victims.

Darren Ursel in my riding trapped a young single mother of two in a car and took a racquetball racket handle to her after ripping her clothes off. Luckily she escaped after 90 minutes of torture. The judge said Ursel was tender at times and was sorry, so he gave Ursel a two-year conditional sentence with no time in jail.

Does the justice minister think there is any time in Canada where a female can be raped and sodomized and the perpetrator should not receive time in prison?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the member is doing what he does best, which is to take fact out of context, exploit the pain and suffering of others, politicize personal and difficult events, and wrap it in some sense of self-righteousness in an effort to persuade others that he really cares.

Day after day the people of Canada must watch the spectacle of this hon. member and his colleagues wringing the pain out of the justice system and putting it in front of the House for cheap political points. The hon. member ought to be ashamed of himself.

[The Speaker]

I would urge members to be very judicious in their choice of words, as I mentioned a little earlier. Just go nice and easy.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that was a disgrace we heard in the House of Commons.

That young lady lives in my riding. The Minister of Justice tells us he cares about victims. The victim of Darren Ursel was sexually abused beyond anyone's understanding in this room and Darren Ursel got no time in jail, thanks to the government's Bill C-41 and conditional sentencing.

Again, does the Minister of Justice and the Liberal government believe it acceptable that any female in Canada can be raped, beaten, humiliated, and the criminal receive no time in jail? Is this what he calls victims rights?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, for as long as there has been a justice system and for as long as we have had politics there have been people like the hon. member who is prepared to do what he is doing. The responsibility of those in government is to rise above this sort of ploy, to remember what is in the public interest and to remember what is responsible government.

The hon. member did not tell the House that the case in issue has gone to the British Columbia Court of Appeal which will have an opportunity to consider all the circumstances of that case, and it ought not be discussed here.

I want the House to note that the hon. member and his colleagues pretend to have a monopoly on concern about victims. The reality is that they talk and we act. We have done more for victims over the last 3.5 years through solid legislation than any other government in history.

Linguistic School Boards

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, in the exchanges that often follow questions and answers during this period, the Minister of Human Resources Development said that it was wrong that the Quebec government was getting ready to take away rights, this was very definitely what he said, from the anglo-Quebec minority.

I ask him what rights, in his view, the Government of Quebec is getting ready to take away from the anglo-Quebec minority in the reform of school boards? And if that is not what he is saying, then he should tell us that the Quebec government is not taking any rights away from the anglo-Quebec minority in its planned school board reform, because it is one or the other.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I will have to repeat what my counterpart, Mr. Brassard, said about the consensus having to include Quebec's anglophone community.

With a bit of good will on both sides, if the Government of Quebec made a few conciliatory gestures toward the anglophone community, a consensus could undoubtedly be arrived at, and in very short order this amendment could be supported, so that Quebecers could organize their school system. That is the objective of this government.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, knowing that the Government of Quebec's plan respects section 23 of the Constitution and that Quebec's anglophones have many more rights than francophones living outside Quebec, some-

thing the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is aware of, I imagine, I ask him to tell us whether, in his view, anglo-Quebecers are represented neither by the Parti Quebecois nor by the Liberal Party of Quebec, and whether only the federal Liberals are in a position to represent Quebecers? Is that his version, as it was for Pierre Elliott Trudeau in the past?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, when a constitutional amendment is being contemplated that clearly concerns a minority, I think everyone will agree that two fundamental questions must be asked.

First: Is the objective a valid one? As the century comes to a close, the Government of Canada has said that, yes, linguistic school boards are entirely valid.

Second: Is there sufficient support in the society in question, including within the community? That is what must be determined, and it is up to the Government of Quebec to do so because this is its plan and its jurisdiction and it is the one in a position to make amendments and provide assurances that will make it possible, in effect, to modernize Quebec's school system. That is everyone's objective.

Government Expenditures

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on Monday I pointed out that the chairman of the Labour Relations Board had been abusing his expense account. On Tuesday I pointed out that he was in a conflict of interest by wining and dining executives of CN and CP while adjudicating on an issue involving the railroads.

The government has referred the issue to the auditor general who will not be able to report back to the House until the fall.

Does the Minister of Labour think that Mr. Weatherill's ethics are higher than the government's, which is why he has not been fired yet, or will the minister stand in the House now to tell us that person is gone today?

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Minister of Labour and Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, from the first moment that we read the article in the Citizen we acted and we asked the auditor general to look at those claims.

We are also looking at whether there was any bias according to what the member reported yesterday and what was in the newspaper this morning before the government took any action. We cannot only act on information that we see in the newspaper. We have to make sure that all the facts are clear and checked and then we act.

We are not a lynching party like the Reform would like to be. We will take the necessary time to make sure all the facts are there and are real. Then we will act.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we thought this government was in charge; not waiting until it reads it in the newspaper to find out what it should be doing.

The government has had this guy's expense accounts on its desk for years and it has done nothing until it showed up in the newspaper. Now it says it has to check it out. This guy has to go, and I want to know if he is going today.