Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today and speak on this issue.
I would like to refocus the debate on the motion at hand which says in part that the government provide separate funded legal representation for complainants at the inquiry.
Some members of the House and some of the complainants appearing before the PCC panel in Vancouver have complained and the media has demanded that legal fees for the complainants at the APEC hearing be paid. They say that it is unfair for the government to fund counsel for its own officials and for the RCMP members but to deny it to the complainants.
When addressing the issue of funding for complainants, it is important to remember why the PCC was created by parliament. It was created by parliament just so that these complaints can be dealt with in a fair and open process. It was created in 1986. The member for Burnaby—Douglas is quoted as saying that it takes us out of the dark ages. With that I agree.
Since its creation it has developed an international reputation for fairness. It is a proper dispute resolution process. It is observably impartial. It is not adversarial. I would argue that it is a far better forum to resolve a dispute of this kind than is this House. This is not the place to conduct a trial.
When the question of providing funding for complainants first came before the PCC panel, it noted that it could not read into its enabling legislation this responsibility. The PCC chose to seek guidance on the question of providing funding for complainants from the Federal Court of Canada.
In her decision of July 20, Madam Justice Reed noted:
It seems reasonably clear that the commission does not have such authority. This follows in large measure from the terms of subsection 45.45(13) of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act—. That subsection provides for payment by the commission of certain expenses incurred by complainants in certain circumstances. The payment of legal fees to allow them to be represented by counsel before the commission is not among these.
The presence of authority to pay for some expenses with an absence of authority to pay for legal fees leads to the conclusion, by implication, the commission does not have the authority to pay for the latter. In addition, the authority to pay amounts from the public purse is usually not a power that exists unless expressly conferred.
It is clear, as the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas has stated, that the Commission has no jurisdiction and no authority to fund the complainants. Madam Justice Reed suggested in her decision that a panel could choose to recommend that the government provide funding for the complainants' counsel. The panel did approach the government regarding the granting of funding and the solicitor general, after serious and careful consideration, turned down that request.
In his letter to the panel the solicitor general said that the government is of the view that the panel can address all the complaints before it in an open and thorough manner without need for the government to provide funding for legal counsel for the complainants.
The PCC is already vested with broad authority. It can, under the terms of the RCMP Act, do the following: Summons any person before the board and require the person to give oral or written evidence under oath and produce such documents and things under the person's control as the board deems requisite to the full investigation and consideration of the matter.
I remind members opposite that there are no limits on who can receive a summons. To summons any person includes any member of the government, including the solicitor general and the Prime Minister. There are no limits on the availability of witnesses to the commission.
In addition, it can administer oaths. It can receive and accept, on affidavit or otherwise, such evidence and other information as the board sees fit, whether or not such evidence or information is or would be admissible in a court of law. The rules of admissibility are waived. Therefore, this can be far beyond the limitations that are imposed upon a court by the rules of admissibility and materiality.
It also specifies that any person whose conduct or affairs are being investigated by a board of inquiry or who satisfies a board of inquiry that the person has a substantial and a direct interest in the matter before the board shall be afforded a full and ample opportunity, in person or by counsel or by representative, to present evidence and make representations as needed. I would respectfully suggest to members opposite that the media have questioned the role of the government and that that, in and of itself, is sufficient reason for the government to retain counsel.
Therefore, it is clear that the complainants have considerable leeway to make their own views known. In this they will be assisted by counsel of the panel who has explained publicly that, in accordance with the PCC mandate, all efforts are being made to ensure that relevant evidence is heard by the panel and that unrepresented participants at the hearing shall be comfortable with the process.
May I suggest to the member for Burnaby—Douglas that if he goes to the Sparks Street mall today and is assaulted, the accusation will be dealt with in a court of law. It will be processed through the court of law by a crown attorney. It will be subject to proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There will be limits on the evidence that can be presented; limits on materiality and relevance. He will be vigorously cross-examined by a defence lawyer.
If, however, the same member has a complaint about the police in the same incident, he will be accorded a hearing before the commission. He will be afforded commission counsel, two additional counsel and three additional investigators. Evidence will be allowed that would never be allowed in a court of law and he will be able to state his complaint freely and fully.
It is ridiculous to suggest that a person who is a victim of an assault should receive independent counsel. It is equally ridiculous to submit that a complainant to a process such as this also have independent counsel.
The commission counsel will take all participants through the evidence. They will be asked in advance of and after their cross-examination if there is anything else they wish to bring to the attention of the panel. If so, the participants will then be given another opportunity to speak.
I would suggest that this honourable House is, in some respect, missing the point by focusing on this motion.
The first point is that there has been no comment on the tragedy befalling ethnic Chinese in Indonesia. There has also been no comment upon Canada's role and relationship with countries that routinely abuse human rights.
The opposition wants to talk about pepper spray, but the government wants to talk about its proper relationship in these deep and troubling circumstances.
I would suggest to hon. members that they reject this motion. This is not a motion that is appropriate. There will be a full and fair hearing. The rules of evidence are wide open and there will be a full and complete hearing of this matter.