Debates of Oct. 23rd, 1998

Apec Inquiry

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there is no double standard here. The solicitor general is not a member of the commission. He is not a member of the panel. He has no authority under the act passed by this parliament to direct the commission. He is at arm's length from it.

Concerning the allegations about Mr. Morin, we will know more about that once the commission makes its statement at 11:30 a.m. Why do we not wait to see what is said and whether the hon. member has some basis for his claims. He has no basis for them now.

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the process is in jeopardy and has been from the start because of the solicitor general's comments. Now we hear the commissioner saying exactly the same kinds of things.

It was business as usual when the solicitor general, the boss of this whole inquiry, went forward and said those damaging things. Now the process has ground to a halt. There is a double standard. Why the double standard?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, why can the hon. member not at least amend his question in the light of my answer?

There is no double standard. The solicitor general is not a member of the commission. He is not part of the inquiry. He cannot direct the inquiry.

As far as the allegations about Mr. Morin in the press today are concerned, let us hear whether or not they are substantiated once we have the statement of the commission later this morning.

In any event, whatever the statement is, it does not change the fact that this government has not been given the authority by parliament to direct the work of the commission. It is independent. It is at arm's length from the government.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.

We learn that the chair of the “Peppergate” commission has apparently turned out to be as chatty as the Solicitor General and has also prejudged the outcome of his own investigation even before it has begun. In this case, it was not on a plane, but in a casino.

Could the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that the government learned in October that Mr. Morin was blabbing last March?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I think we will have to await the statement by the commission, which will be made within half an hour. Once the statement has been made public, it will be easier to comment on the matter in detail.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this really feels like a circus.

What is behind these sudden revelations of Mr. Morin's blabbing.

Are we to understand that the government is preparing to use Mr. Morin as a scapegoat to mask the mistakes made by the Prime Minister and his Solicitor General?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is not our intention to hide the facts in this matter. The circus atmosphere is the hon. member's creation and she should be criticized for creating this atmosphere, which is hindering the work of the commission.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the government is turning itself into an object of ridicule.

After the Solicitor General's blabbing, the Prime Minister's sophisticated remarks on the respective merits of baseball bats and pepper spray, and the government's refusal to pay the students' legal fees, it would now appear that the commission's chair is as chatty as the Solicitor General. This is turning into a farce.

When will the government finally admit that no one believes it any more when it says that the commission has all the means and the credibility necessary to shed light on what really happened in Vancouver?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult for me to comment on the hon. member's allegations before the commission issues its statement.

Once this statement is released, it will be easier for us, on both sides of the House, to make comments.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that it is high time a different approach was used and the whole matter put into the hands of a proper public commission of inquiry with full powers, so we can finally get to the bottom of the Liberal Peppergate scandal?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I reject the premise of the hon. member's question. There is no Liberal scandal. We want to do things properly in this matter.

I must add that, while criticizing the government, the member is asking the same government to set up a commission, appoint its members and determine its mandate. That is a double standard.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the chair of the RCMP Public Complaints Commission has apparently prejudged the outcome of the APEC inquiry. If confirmed, he has no choice but to resign. In the case of the solicitor general he has clearly prejudged the inquiry outcome and he has no choice but to resign.

When will the Prime Minister do the right thing? When will he fire the solicitor general?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I suggest the leader of the NDP not just read her scripted question but pay attention to my answer.

The solicitor general is not part of the commission. He is not a member of the commission. He did not create the commission. He has no authority under the law passed by this parliament to direct it.

We do not know exactly what Mr. Morin is supposed to have done. We have not heard the statement of the commission. Let us wait and hear what is said. Then it will be easier to comment on this important matter in the way that it deserves.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Deputy Prime Minister was reading from the news reports. Today he is trying to reject them or to ridicule them.

Forget the double-talk. Forget the double standards. Just fire the solicitor general. When will the Prime Minister do that?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am not criticizing the news reports. All I say is that rather than the news reports, in this case we are going to have a statement from the commission very soon at which time it will be easier to comment on this matter.

When it comes to double-talk and double standards, the hon. member sets a good standard herself here.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, we all know in this House things must not only be right, they must appear to be right.

Today in the Vancouver Sun there are allegations that Gerald Morin, the chair of the public complaints commission, a Liberal government appointee, prejudged the outcome of the APEC inquiry. This comes after similar allegations of the solicitor general and we all know that is true.

I ask the Deputy Prime Minister will the government remove this truth seeking exercise from the hands of the Liberal appointees and put it in the hands of an impartial, apolitical—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The hon. Deputy Prime Minister.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, because of the law passed by this parliament the commission has full authority to look into any complaints brought before it and to set the way it does so by public hearing or otherwise. Parliament has not given the government any authority to withdraw this matter from the commission. That is a fact.

As far as setting up another kind of inquiry, the hon. member as I said in a previous answer, is asking the very government she is criticizing to take this step, to set up the inquiry, to appoint a commissioner to set its terms of reference. Thanks for the vote of confidence in the government.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, for weeks the opposition has been saying that the public complaints commission does not have the mandate or the moral authority to investigate political interference. For weeks the Liberals have done everything to hide behind this flawed process, from the solicitor general's loose lips to the government's refusal to fund the students.

Now that the commission itself is becoming discredited, the outcome flawed, will the government commit to openness and appoint a judicial inquiry?

This smacks of cover-up. What is the government hiding?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the government is hiding nothing in this matter.

We do not know yet exactly what the commission is going to say about the allegations. Surely it makes sense to hear what the commission has to say about this matter.

Again I want to thank the hon. member for his vote of confidence, as is the case with his interim leader, in the government. If any commission is going to be set up other than the work being done by the public complaints commission, that commission would be set up by this very same government under the relevant statute. Again, thanks for the vote of confidence.

[Gurmant Grewal, Reform, Surrey Central, BC]

Mr. Speaker, to restore public faith in the government and to get to the bottom of the APEC cover-up, the person looking into this whole affair should be completely independent and free from any possible manipulations.

The new investigation has to have proper rules of evidence and the right to subpoena any evidence and any person, including the Prime Minister himself.

Will the Prime Minister strike an independent judicial inquiry to look into this whole affair?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, under the law passed by this parliament, the public complaints commission is a permanent body. It has wide authority and wide powers to carry out investigations in the way it sees fit. I think one should recognize these wide powers and not try to undermine the work of the commission as it is barely getting underway.

Once again, I thank the Reform Party for its vote of confidence in the government. It is asking for something that this very government it is criticizing would have to do. Thanks again for the vote of confidence.

[Deepak Obhrai, Reform, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister is stonewalling again. An independent judicial inquiry is desperately needed to clear the poisoned air surrounding the APEC inquiry.

Canadians have lost faith in an inquiry due to loose lips, inappropriate comments by the Prime Minister and alleged government interference. Canadians are tired of this comedy of errors.

Will the government strike a new independent judicial inquiry? Yes or no.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I object to the premise of the hon. member's question. Instead of stonewalling, I always try to be helpful to the House in answering questions.

Once again we have a confirmation of the Reform Party of its faith in the government. It criticized the government for its role in this matter and yet it wants it to set up a commission.

Once again, I thank the Reform Party for its vote of confidence.

Health Care

[Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

Yesterday, the Minister of Finance said that if the money is available, health care will definitely be a priority. Now, five months into the current fiscal year, the surplus has already reached $8 billion.

Since money is available, and considering there are pressing needs in the health sector right across the country, what excuse will the Minister of Health make up to avoid asking the Minister of Finance to immediately allocate the available money to health?