Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to join in this debate today to talk about the test ban treaty and the necessity to have such a treaty in the world. I will detail some of the things the government I hope pursues with vigour over the next months and years as it tries to make this test ban treaty more than just a symbolic measure that is easy to agree with and is easy to endorse; a comprehensive agreement that will cover not only the ones that have signed to date but the problem states, the rogue states, that as of now have refused to do it for a variety of reasons.
I will read into the record again what this bill does. It does implement the test ban treaty that Canada has been in favour of and has endorsed for some time since its inception. It is an attempt to ban the testing of nuclear weapons by limiting nuclear explosions. It spells out severe penalties for Canadians and others if they are involved in the detonation of a nuclear device in Canada. It makes it a crime to aid and abet such an action. It obliges Canadian companies to report any chemical blasts that could be mistaken for nuclear explosions, in other words large scale chemical explosions, in order to monitor the whole process of who is testing what and where.
As the official opposition we generally support this piece of legislation. I would like to bring up a few problems or reservations I have on not so much the legislation but the process we have followed so far.
First, there is in this legislation and in the test ban treaty a mechanism to monitor worldwide any explosions that may be taking place, the magnitude, what was involved, who did it and when and so on. That is a good thing. Canada is certainly doing its part. We have a series of seismic and other tests that will ensure that this monitoring continues and we will do our part.
As in all international agreements, I urge the government to make sure this does not become an excuse for a large scale bureaucracy. I hope it will not but there is always the danger that when there is a multinational organization and an agreement is in place no one watches the bottom line. Certainly there is no bottom line on peace but there is a bottom line on how much this testing should cost and I urge the government just to keep an eye on that. I hope it will and certainly we will be doing that from our side.
I think it has been brought up today in the speeches, but I want to reiterate that we want to make sure there are no illusions on the part of people watching this debate or by the Minister of Foreign Affairs that this is the be all and end all that will somehow bring us the nirvana of perpetual peace on earth.
This is really a small step in securing the idea that nuclear weapons are not desirable and that we should work toward their elimination. That of course is easy to agree with. Again, it is not nirvana, it is not the answer to all this especially given the states the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca has already listed. Look at states like North Korea, India, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, some Middle East countries and so on that are unwilling at this stage to sign the document.
There are reasons they have I suppose or they try to justify for not signing but whatever the reason they are the very states that I think need to be brought into this process. To engage these non-signatories should be the primary goal on the nuclear issue by the foreign affairs minister at this stage.
Whatever pressure or influence Canada can bring over the next while, months and years to come, that should be part of all their discussions with these countries particularly. It is not enough to sit back, put the flowers in the end of the rifle barrel and say all we are saying is give peace a chance. That is not good enough. We need to make sure this test ban treaty is just a start of a vigorous and ongoing campaign to make all countries of the world realize that it is in their best interests to pursue this non-proliferation treaty.
The hard reality is that unruly, unreliable regimes run by unruly and unreliable leaders, and I will pick Saddam Hussein as an example here, show the necessity of future pressure to make these kinds of countries and individuals sign this treaty and to verify that they are following through.
We have to pursue those two things. I do not think anybody thinks Canada is going to whip up atomic bombs and start packing them around in a suitcase. But there is a serious problem with some of these countries.
We need to use our connections, not only with countries that we are not so friendly with, but even with countries that we have longstanding traditional relationships with. In particular, we need to look at India and Pakistan. We have a lot of close ties with those countries. Many people from those countries have immigrated to Canada and are now a part of our Canadian culture.
Pakistan and India are in serious difficulties. They should know that we are willing to talk to them and recognize them as perhaps not a big superpower like the Americans or the Chinese, but certainly a very powerful entity in themselves. We must tell them that we respect their sovereignty. We must encourage them to get on board and do what is best, not just for their own country but for the world, by signing this treaty. Particularly with Pakistan and India we must emphasize that.
I want to emphasize that it is important to me and to the Reform Party that mechanisms be found to encourage the government to bring treaties like this more often to the House of Commons for debate. It is interesting that the committee on foreign affairs has been studying the nuclear issue for some months now and just as it is drafting its report, which will deal with issues like this, the government brings in legislation which says “This is the way we are going to do it”. To tell the members of parliament in the foreign affairs committee “I am interested in seeing your report, but it does not really matter, we are going to proceed as follows” is discouraging.
A better process for international treaties would be to bring the concept either to a committee or to a debate in the House. That would allow members of parliament to at least be a part of the process and to be apprised of where we are. It would allow opposition members to have some input on errors and omissions in the treaty before the government actually signed on the dotted line. We should have that debate and discussion among members of parliament so they feel they have been involved on behalf of the people of Canada.
The government listens carefully to many non-government organizations, to pressure groups, to other countries and to a lot of good debate. I do not deny that it is all worthwhile. But it seems like the last people in the loop are members of parliament. If the government is interested in encouraging knowledge and debate on international relations between Canada and other countries it has to give the House an important role to play in the treaty making process. Because it does not do that it dooms the process to cynicism. That is unfortunate.
This is a good debate today on a good bill. Unfortunately the cart is far ahead of the horse and that is too bad.
It is the position of the official opposition to support this nuclear non-proliferation treaty. We accept the spirit of Bill C-52. As I have said, I hope that the government in the future will use the opportunity not just to educate MPs, but to actually let us feel that we have had an impact on the government's decision making process. If the government would do that it would probably find lots of support for its position. MPs would feel that they had been brought in at the start of the process instead of at the very end.