Debates of Nov. 19th, 1998

Apec Inquiry

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, how many sworn affidavits is it going to take before the Prime Minister fires the solicitor general? How many sworn affidavits does it take? How many?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, on sworn affidavits, I want to read again from paragraph 22 of Mr. Toole's affidavit: “Nothing in our conversation suggested to me that Mr. Scott knew what the outcome of the APEC commission would be”.

Speaking of where members are, I know one thing about the hon. member. He is strictly out to lunch.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that is an absolutely ridiculous reply to that question.

The minister knows that Fred Toole said that Hugh Stewart was going to take a hit or a fall. The question is who is he taking it for?

When is that minister over there going to tell the solicitor general that he has to resign? When is he going to do the honourable thing and resign?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, why does the hon. member continue to fail to recognize the fact that the law gives the solicitor general no role whatsoever in carrying out the hearings, in reaching the report and reaching a conclusion on this important matter? Why does the hon. member not let the commission do its work? Why does he try to parallel the commission in an unwarranted way on the floor of this House?

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the solicitor general's conduct in the “Peppergate” affair is absolutely crazy. It is absolutely ludicrous.

First, he does not remember who was the person sitting beside him, not even if this person was a man or a woman. Twenty-four hours later, he remembers he was sitting next to an old friend but not what they talked about. In an affidavit, he tells us he does not remember what he said but that it was nothing compromising.

Frankly, will the government recognize that enough is enough and that the solicitor general must step down?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I do not understand why the hon. member does not recognize that the solicitor general has no role in the decision to be made in this matter.

In his own affidavit, he even insisted that he had not prejudged this case. We recognize this and also in our discussion today.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we would really have liked to discuss this matter today with the solicitor general.

But what I do not understand is that the Deputy Prime Minister is still defending him. Or could it be that the Deputy Prime Minister is really defending the Prime Minister for whom the solicitor general only serves as a cover.

Is this not enough? Has this matter not lasted long enough? If there is an ethics counsellor and some sense of responsibility on that side of the House, the solicitor general should be asked to resign.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if there is a cover here, it is the hon. member who is covering for Lucien Bouchard.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we have two affidavits stating that the Solicitor General made presumptions about the conclusions of the RCMP inquiry during his chat on the plane.

We also have the Solicitor General saying “I do not remember what I said, but I did nothing bad”.

Will the Deputy Prime Minister finally admit that the Solicitor General has a very serious credibility problem and that his only option is to resign?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I wonder why the hon. member fails to recognize Mr. Toole's words in the affidavit, and I quote, in English:

“At no time during our conversation did Mr. Scott suggest to me nor have I learned subsequently that he was a person who had a role in determining the outcome of the APEC commission”.

The Solicitor General plays no part, under the law, in judging the commission. This is clear.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Solicitor General could have resigned immediately after his chat on the plane without losing face or credibility.

Now that he no longer has any credibility, should the Prime Minister not ask him to resign in order to salvage what dignity he has left?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. Solicitor General continues to enjoy the confidence of the Prime Minister and of his colleagues.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, on October 5 the solicitor general told Canadians he would have to consider resigning if statements attributed to him by myself were corroborated. Yesterday his long term friend Fred Toole did just that.

Now that both the political friend and the political ally of the solicitor general have verified what he said about RCMP Staff Sergeant Hugh Stewart, my question for the Deputy Prime Minister is when will the Prime Minister be accepting the resignation of his solicitor general?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I ask my hon. friend when will he read paragraphs 21 and 22 of Mr. Toole's affidavit and realize that it undermines the credibility of his question.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it is unconscionable that this solicitor general remain one more second in his position. The Deputy Prime Minister knows full well that is the point. Even if the Deputy Prime Minister refers to my writing as hen scratching, it has given your members opposite lots to itch about over there—

[The Speaker]

My colleague, you should always address your remarks to the Speaker.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that. My question is very simple. When will the solicitor general resign?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when will the hon. member read carefully each and every word of both affidavits in question?

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, Fred Toole and the member for Palliser filed affidavits that clearly destroy the veracity of the solicitor general. We now have sworn evidence from two people that completely contradicts nearly two months of denials. The solicitor general's story has more changes than the maritime weather. The Deputy Prime Minister has quoted extensively from these affidavits but Mr. Toole is not the person to force the resignation of the minister. When can we expect the solicitor general to do the honourable thing and resign over this matter?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the basic issue is whether or not the solicitor general has any role whatsoever in taking part in the hearings, in conducting the hearings or in writing the report as a result of the hearings. The fact of the matter is he has no such role. He has said over and over again, including under oath, that he has not prejudged the situation and in any event he plays no role in making the judgment.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, what a wicked web. The APEC panel is in shambles, the RCMP is challenging the process itself, Gerald Morin and the solicitor general are both under suspicion of prejudging the outcome, there are discrepancies, denials, PMO cover-ups and the removal of any hope of a satisfactory conclusion. What will it take for the solicitor general to take responsibility, to act responsible? He has tainted this investigation hopelessly. When will he resign?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, parliament, in passing the relevant law, has not given the solicitor general responsibility for the commission in question, for its panels, or for the conducting of the hearings. That is very clear. So I ask the hon. member, when will he stop trying to taint the work of the commission by playing out his political concerns on the floor of this House?

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this is all about the Liberal solicitor general inappropriately discussing a sensitive police matter that is still under investigation and doing it in public. It is about a breach of his duties. It is about failing to live up to the most basic responsibility that Canadians have entrusted to him. The solicitor general had a job to do. He was to do the job, be honest, be discreet and keep his mouth shut if necessary. He failed on all accounts. It is late but not too late. When will he do the right thing and tender his resignation? Do it now.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the solicitor general has been doing his job. That job does not include running the public complaints commission. It does not include running the panel. It does not include conducting the hearings. It does not include writing the report or making its judgment. So he has been doing his job but not a job which the hon. member wants him to play so he can score political points.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this is pretty sad. The solicitor general's seatmate, Fred Toole, swore an affidavit about what was said on that airplane. He did it because he refused to perjure himself to cover for the solicitor general. Just think for a second over there about what that says about the solicitor general. It says that he has to resign and he has to resign now.