Debates of Nov. 20th, 1998

Solicitor General Of Canada

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, since the Deputy Prime Minister mentions poverty and other concerns, let us talk about social justice concerns.

Listening to the Deputy Prime Minister defend the solicitor general is a little like reading the soliloquy of Hamlet , whether he should be or not to be. It is clear that the solicitor general has neither the confidence of the people of Canada or even members of the House.

When will the solicitor general end his agony for himself and the nation and resign?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is engaging in a soliloquy when he is talking to himself about these matters and avoiding important matters like the economic and social future of the country which the government is dealing with and making progress on.

The NDP has lost its historic vocation and should be ashamed of itself.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday Canadians sadly observed the first solicitor general in history to enter the witness protection program.

The APEC inquiry is mired in conflict, has a limited mandate and has now proven indiscretions by the solicitor general. The Prime Minister should simply pick up the phone and call the solicitor general and fire him. Apparently ministerial responsibility has also gone missing.

Is the government refusing to fire the solicitor general because it is afraid of testimony that he might give at the APEC inquiry? What is more important than ethics?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the government has already said that it intends to co-operate fully with the commission.

If the hon. member is so interested in the work of the commission then let the commission do its work and not try to derail the commission with the unwarranted insinuations and innuendoes in his questions before the House.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, we can understand the Deputy Prime Minister's sympathy for an incompetent solicitor general given his personal irresponsibility in the Airbus file two years ago.

The fact remains that the solicitor general's word has now been contradicted. He did in fact discuss sensitive government business in a public place.

Will the Deputy Prime Minister face the reality of the solicitor general's breach of office and personally urge for that minister's resignation?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I would prefer to start asking for the resignation as House leader of the hon. member but I guess that would not be my role.

I want to remind the House that Mr. Toole in his affidavit said “At no time during our conversation did Mr. Scott suggest to me, nor have I learned subsequently, that he was a person who had a role in determining the outcome of the APEC commission. Nothing in our conversation suggested to me that Mr. Scott knew what the outcome of the APEC commission would be”.

I urge the hon. member to pay attention to these key paragraphs in Mr. Toole's affidavit.

[Rob Anders, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, when Sinclair Stevens was fired from cabinet in 1986 then Prime Minister Brian Mulroney was abroad in China. After days of defending the indefensible the prime minister ordered his deputy to fire Stevens.

Why will the current Prime Minister not match the ethical standard of Brian Mulroney and fire the solicitor general?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I want to say that the Prime Minister is very much aware of his responsibilities. The Prime Minister will be back in the country on Saturday evening.

He has already spoken about this matter in China. He is following it closely and I am sure he will have more to say about it when he is back in our country and he can deal with the unwarranted allegations of the hon. member.

[Chuck Cadman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, today in the Telegraph Journal , the largest newspaper in the solicitor general's home province of New Brunswick, an editorialist wrote: “If the solicitor general truly takes pride in our policing he knows that he is honour bound to resign”. Where is the honour of this government? Where are its ethics? Why will the solicitor general not do the honourable thing and resign?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if I looked through all the editorials of that same newspaper, I could probably find a number of editorials taking a position on other issues directly opposite to what the Reform Party thinks. I do not know why one would want to pick one editorial over another. It is their view and of course we have to give it due attention, but I am sure that we could find other editorials that would take contrary positions on other important issues.

Youth Programs

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this morning a coalition representing various groups of young people came here to ask the federal government to transfer to Quebec all the money earmarked for youth programs.

Since this request is very much along the same lines as Quebec's traditional demands and is the logical extension of the transfer of manpower training, does the minister intend to give it a favourable reply?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I can tell you one thing: youth unemployment is such a serious issue in Canada that all of us must put our shoulders to the wheel.

A commitment must be made by the private sector and by all levels of government, including municipalities, the provinces and the federal government. Under the Canadian government's youth employment strategy, 12 federal departments are doing their share to help young people join the labour market. All levels of government, along with businesses, must help us.

Is the PQ branch telling us that we must stop providing 25,000 internships, that we must stop creating 70,000 summer jobs for—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Rosemont has the floor.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is not the PQ branch that came here this morning to say that the youth strategy is not working. It is the consensus among young people and the minister should realize that.

Instead of trying to convince himself that everything is fine, could the minister give us just one good reason to keep youth training programs under federal jurisdiction, considering that he has already transferred the general manpower training programs, and that he himself said this was a better solution?

How come what is good for workers in general is not good for young Quebeckers?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am astonished that the member would dare talk about a consensus in Quebec, when the PQ branch here in this House is ignoring the fact that three-quarters of all Quebeckers do not want a referendum.

They are now saying “we will have a winning referendum”. The members on that side of the House have the gall to say that those Quebeckers who prefer interdependence with other Canadians are losers.

Is the only winning referendum one that is won by the PQ? In fact, a winning referendum is one in which Quebeckers express themselves freely, as they have done in the past.

Apec Inquiry

[Jim Gouk, Reform, West Kootenay—Okanagan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, what we have in this House is a double standard. We now find out that last year the solicitor general gave specific orders to the RCMP not to discuss the APEC inquiry.

Does the Prime Minister now support cabinet ministers breaking their own rules?

[Jacques Saada, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am informed that at no time did the solicitor general give any such instruction to the RCMP.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the solicitor general is the top law enforcement officer in the country. What kind of message is he sending to the police officers, prison wardens and judges across the country when he breaks the rules and gets off scot-free? When is he going to resign?

[Jacques Saada, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, for a few weeks we have been working on the basis of innuendoes, hearsay and despicable lack of respect for fundamental justice for people sitting in this House. I refuse to answer this question in this fashion.

Intergovernmental Affairs

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs a question, but got no response. The minister had obviously put in the wrong tape.

I would therefore like to ask him the same question again. If the minister is as great a consensus-producer as he claims to be, how can he explain that he was not trusted by the Prime Minister to handle the matter of social union, when it comes under his mandate? Why was he denied this responsibility?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member very much for showing such an interest in my political career. I would like to take this opportunity to explain further what social union is.

Quebeckers' view of it may be an abstract one. I shall define it very simply. Social union is Canadians helping Canadians, one of the most admirable forms of mutual assistance ever invented. We invented it, along with our fellow Canadians.

The difficult situation in which the province of Quebec finds itself, in large part because of the political uncertainty and the threat of secession, costs our provincial government $4.5 billion in revenue year after year, according to Georges Mathews, an economist with close ties to the Bloc Quebecois. Are we going to give responsibility for this social union to a premier who wants to destroy Canada, or to a Prime Minister who wants to—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Témiscaminque.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Quebeckers will soon be settling that debate.

Yesterday we saw the Minister of Immigration trying to score some political points for “Le printemps au Québec”, an event held in Paris, by brandishing the maple leaf on the international scene, and thus overshadowing Quebec culture.

Does the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs plan to continue to improve Canada by making every effort to eclipse Quebec on the international scene?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, one thing must be made clear. It is not traditional for the Government of Canada to send its Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs out to negotiate with the provinces on anything but strictly constitutional matters.

If the matter is a social one, a minister with a social mandate is sent. If the matter is economic, a minister with an economic mandate is sent, because what is of primary importance to us is to serve the people.

The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is there simply to help out his federal and provincial colleagues, and I am performing my duties to the satisfaction of the Prime Minister.

Apec Inquiry

[Gurmant Grewal, Reform, Surrey Central, BC]

Mr. Speaker, let me quote from page 91 of the Liberal red book:

There is evidence today of considerable dissatisfaction with government.... some have to do with the behaviour of certain elected politicians, others with an arrogant style of political leadership.

This is not a headline from today's papers. This is right from the Liberal red book.

When will the Prime Minister stop the arrogant stonewalling and fire the solicitor general?