Debates of Feb. 18th, 1998

Questions On The Order Paper

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

(a) Sarita Bhatla, policy adviser to the Minister of Citizenship & Immigration, CIC, and Mr. Greg Fyffe, assistant deputy minister, policy and program development, CIC, accompanied the minister on her travel to Australia and New-Zealand.

(b) The total travel cost for this trip was $36,153.65. The travel cost incurred by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration was $12,457.73. The Department of Citizenship and Immigration has no information concerning hospitality costs or other expenses incurred by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and/or regional/local offices and absorbed by them.

(c) Monday, August 25—Auckland, New-Zealand

Briefing on New-Zealand Refugees issues and tour of Mangere refugee resettlement centre.

11 a.m.: Ms. Marie Sullivan, branch manager, refugee quota, New-Zealand Immigration Service, NZIS.

The minister's main focus in Auckland was her August 25 visit to the NZIS run Mangere refugee reception centre. She toured the facility, met staff, was briefed on New Zealand's offshore refugee program and held a roundtable discussion with representatives of non-governmental organizations, NGOs. The centre is managed by the refugee quota branch of NZIS and serves as the focal point for all activities relating to the identification in co-operation with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees UNHCR, interview, selection transportation in co-operation with UNHCR and the International Organization for Migration, IOM, reception, medical assessment/treatment, sponsorship and settlement of New Zealnad's annual convention refugee quota.

Noon: Informal luncheon and discussions on refugee issues with:

Ms. Jacqueline Tidbury, Regional Co-ordinator, Refugee & Migrant Services, New Zealand NGO Dr. Nagalingham Rasalingham, President, Auckland Refugee Council Ms. Marie Sullivan, NZIS Mr. William Smith, Refugee Co-ordinator, Amnesty International Mr. Keryn McDermott, Co-ordinator, Aukland Institute of Technology AIT Program, Resettlement Centre Ms. Jan Clark, Senior Policy Adviser, Risk Management, NZIS Mr. Sean Henderson, UNHCR

Topics discussed during lunch included public perceptions of refugees, settlement challenges, responsibilities of sponsors and challenges in tapping new sources of sponsorship.

Monday, August 25—Wellington, New Zealand

5 p.m.: Honourable Jack Elder, Minister of Internal Affairs, responsible for citizenship issues.

Minister Elder, responsible for citizenship, passports, the police, etc., indicated that his department is about to embark on a review of citizenship law.

7 p.m.: Official dinner hosted by Mr. Brian Watson, Acting Canadian High Commissioner.

Guest List:

Acting Canadian High Commissioner and Mrs. Linda Watson Hon. Lucienne Robillard Mr. Greg Fyffe, ADM policy and program development, Citizenship and Immigration Canada Ms. Sarita Bhatla, Policy Adviser to the Minister of Citisenship and Immigration Hon. Max Bradford, Minister of Immigration, Government of New Zealand Mr. John Chetwin, Chief Executive and secretary, Department of Labour, Government of New Zealand Mr. Andrew Lockhart, Acting General Manager, NZIS Mr. Peter Leniston, Manager, Policy and Evaluation Branch, NZIS Mr. Martin Treadwell, Acting Chair, Refugee Status Appeal Authority, RSAA Independent Tribunal Mr. Peter Cotton, Director, Refugee and Migrant Service NGO Mr. Arvind Zodgekar, Senior Lecturer, Sociology and Social Policy Department, University of Victoria, Wellington, New Zealand Mr. David Hardinge, Counsellor Immigration, Canadian High Commission, Canberra, Australia Ms. Barbara Gavan, Senior Private Secretary to Hon. Max Bradford

Tuesday, August 26—Wellington, New Zealand

9 a.m.: Overview of the Department of Labour and New Zealand Immigration Service

Mr. John Chetwin, Chief Executive and Secretary, Department of Labour

On August 26 a series of meetings was held at NZIS National Office with senior officials. Chief Executive and Secretary of the Department of Labour, John Chetwin, welcomed the minister and provided an overview of the department and its broad responsibilities.

Mr. Andrew Lockhart, Acting General Manager, NZIS

Andrew Lockhart laid out the scope of NZIS operations onshore and abroad.

Mr. Peter Leniston, Manager, Policy and Evaluation Branch, NZIS

Peter Leniston presented an overview of the government's coalition agreement which guides the present direction of NZIS policy development. The agreement focuses on New Zealand's ability to absorb newcomers, emphasizes the requirement that immigration policy must meet the country's needs and recognizes diversity.

10 a.m.: Discussion of refugee/asylum issues

Mr. Andrew Lockhart, Acting General Manager, NZIS Ms. Margaret Cantlon, Manager, Refugee Status Branch, NZIS Mr. Martin Treadwell, Acting Chair of the Refugee Status Appeal Authority, RSAA

Discussion of New Zealand's two tier asylum system. It was pointed out that New Zealand's refugee system, like much other immigration policy and procedure, is not codified in law. Rather, it exists under terms of reference issued by cabinet.

Noon: Working Lunch: Roundtable discussion on intelligence and Risk management project

Guest List:

Ms. Jan Clark, Senior Policy Adviser, NZIS Mr. Peter Leniston, Manager, Policy & Evaluation Branch, NZIS Ms. Anita Reedy, Policy Adviser, NZIS Mr. Andrew Lockhart, Acting General Manager, NZIS

The present level of co-operation between CIC and NZIS on enforcement issues was praised by the New Zealand side. Reference was made to the recently concluded visit to Ottawa and Vancouver by senior NZIS policy branch staff who were extremely pleased with their reception and found CIC's willingness to share insights and information of great benefit. Minister Robillard reacted positively to the comments of the New Zealanders and suggested that avenues for further co-operation, including offshore interdiction, might be pursued in the future for the mutual benefit of both countries. The discussions also covered integration issues with Mr. Leniston and Ms. Bev Hong, senior policy analyst, NZIS.

2 p.m.: Mr. Kevin Jenkins and Ms. Angela Cassidy, Policy Advisers, NZIS Update on New Zealand population conference

2.30 p.m.: Mr. David Pickering, Manager, Citizenship, Department of Internatl Affairs

In meeting with senior staff of the Ministry of Internal Affairs on August 26 further discussion of citizenship matters took place.

4 p.m.: Hon. Max Bradford, Minister of Immigration

Minister Robillard met with New Zealand Minister of Immigration, Hon. Max Bradford, on three occasions while she was in Wellington. Minister Bradford spoke very favorably about the co-operation that now exists between CIC and NZIS. Minister Bradford described his top priority as fixing the existing refugee determination system.

8 p.m.: Official dinner hosted by the Honourable Max Bradford & Mrs. Bradford.

Guest List:

Hon. Lucienne Robillard Ms. Sarita Bhatla, Policy Adviser to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Mr. Greg Fyffe, ADM Policy and Program Development, Citizenship and Immigration Canada Mr. David Hardinge, Counsellor Immigration, Canadian High Commission, Canberra The Hon. Roger Maxwell, MP, List Member of Parliament, National Party, and former Minister of Immigration Mrs. Georgina te Heuheu, MP, List Member of Parliament, National Party Mr. Murray McLean, MP, Member of Parliament for Coromandel, National Mr. Geoff Thompson, President, New Zealand National Party

Thursday August 28—Canberra, Australia

10.15 a.m.: Call on High Commissioner Brian Schumacher and High Commission staff.

11 a.m.: Meeting with the Minister of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs (DIMA), the Honourable Philip Ruddock.

On August 28 Minister Robillard met both formally and over a working lunch at Parliament House with Minister Ruddock. Session covered matters relating to the context for change in immigration policy within Australia.

12 p.m.: Lunch hosted by Minister Ruddock.

Following the conclusion of the luncheon meeting, which was attended by Australian politicians Opposition Immigration Shadow Minister, Chair & Deputy Chair of the Joint Standing Committee on Migration, etc., DIMA officials such as Secretary, DM, Helen Williams and High Commissioner Schumacher, Minister Robillard proceeded to the House of Representatives to observe Question Time.

2 p.m.: Briefing/roundtable discussion: The Legal Framework Opening Remarks: Mr. Mark Sullivan, DIMA Deputy Secretary

Briefing led by Mr. Des Storer, First Assistant Secretary, Australian Parliamentary, Legal and Research Division, DIMA, on Australian immigration legislative framework.

2.30 p.m.: Briefing led by Mr. Eric Brookbanks, Assistant Secretary, Business Branch & Acting First Assistant Secretary Overseas Client Services DIMA, concerning immigration control issues including removals.

Also participating in this discussion were:

Mr. Abdul Rizvi, Assistant Secretary, Migration and Temporary Entry Branch, DIMA Mr. Dario Castello, Assistant Secretary, Migration and Temporary Entry Branch, DIMA Joann Mackenzie, A/Director, Instructions and Forms Distribution and Delivery Strategies Branch, DIMA.

6.30 p.m.: Informal Dinner with Senator Amanda Vanstone, Minister of Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs to discuss foreign student issues in Australia and Canada.

Friday, August 29—Canberra, Australia

9 a.m.: Briefing/Roundtable Discussion on humanitarian entry, asylum and compliance. Briefing led by Ms. Jenny Bedlington, First Assistant Secretary, Australian Client Services Division, DIMA. Also participating in this discussion were:

Philippa Godwin, Assistant Secretary, Protection and Family Residence Branch, DIMA Frank Johnston, A/Assistant, Refugee and Humanitarian Branch, DIMA Peter Job, Director Settlement Branch, DIMA Matt Kennedy, Director, Citizenship Decision Support Section, DIMA

12.30 p.m.: Official luncheon, host: Mr. Brian Schumacher, High Commissioner for Canada.

Guest List:

Hon. Lucienne Robillard Ms. Susanne Tongue, Principal Member, Immigration review Tribunal Independent Tribunal Mr. Jahansah Asadi, Regional Representative, UNHCR Dr. James Jupp, Director Centre for Immigration and Multicultural Studies Australian National University Mr. Andrew Metcalf, Senior Adviser, Office of the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs Ms. Julianna Stackpool, Policy Adviser, Higher Education, Office of the Minister for Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs Ms. Jenni Gordon, First Assistant Secretary, International, Department of Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs Mr. Jorgen Steen Olesen, Regional Representative, IOM Ms. Philippa Godwin, Assistant Secretary, Protection and Family Residence, DIMA Mr. Bert Mowbray, General Counsel, DIMA Ms. Jenny Bedlington, First Assistant Secretary, Australian Client Services Division, DIMA Mr. A. Smith, Deputy High Commissioner, Canadian High Commission Mr. Greg Fyffe, ADM Policy and Program Development, CIC Ms. Sarita Bhatla, Policy Adviser to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Mr. David Hardinge, Counsellor, Immigration, Canadian High Commission, Canberra

Monday, September 1—Sydney, Australia

11 a.m.: Walkabout of Canadian Consulate, led by Consul General Alan Virtue and accompanied by Mr. Ian Thomson, Immigration Program Manager. Meet with consulate staff and present Locally Engaged Staff, LES, Merit Award.

12.30 p.m.: Visit to Auburn Migrant Resource Centre, followed by Working Lunch with non-governmental organizations, NGOs.

Minister Robillard met at the Auburn Migrant Resource Centre with senior representatives from an array of NGOs active in providing service to and advocacy on behalf of immigrants and refugees. Participants included a solicitor who represents asylum claimants, Refugee Council of Australia, National Council of Churches, AUSTCARE, Ethnic Communities Council, Australian Jewish Welfare Society, etc. Each of the NGO reps provided an overview of their interests, activities and concerns of the moment.

2.35 p.m.: Tour Centre and On Arrival Accomodation flats, DIMA facilities, with: Ms. Tricia Flanagan, DIMA A/Regional Manager, Paramatta, a district of Sydney

3.30 p.m.: Meeting with Fairfield Mayor, Mr. Ken Chapman, JP.

The visit to the Fairfield municipal council allowed Minister Robillard the opportunity to receive the views and experiences of a local authority on providing services to a multicultural population, 64% of whom do not speak English in their homes. A short walking tour of multicultural area, Cabramatta, in Fairfield area escorted by Mayor Chapman.

Tuesday, September 2—Sydney, Australia

1. a.m.: Briefing and tour of DIMA office of The Rocks, a model DIMA operation led by Mr. Glen Smith, Regional Manager, the Rocks. Minister Robillard toured the facility and met with staff

10.30 a.m.: Meeting with Mr. Shun N. Chetty, Principal Member Chair, Refugee Review Tribunal, RRT and working lunch

Mr. Chetty briefes Minister Robillard on the independent RRT's role in hearing asylum appeals.

2.50 p.m.: Villawood Detention Centre Briefing/Tour of facility and discussion on DIMA operations in New South Wales, NSW. Led by Mr. Nick Nicholls, DIMA NSW State Director and Ms. Nelly Siegmund, NSW Onshore Protection Manager.

Wednesday, September 3—Sydney, Australia

8 a.m.: Mr. Bruce Sant, acting DIMA Airport Manager provided commentary on DIMA airport operations

(d) See part (c).

(e) Agreements or joint undertakings, initiated or planned between Canada/New Zealand and Canada/Australia during Minister Robillard's travel to Australia and New Zealand between August 24 and September 3, 1997:

New Zealand:

1. Government of New Zealand expressed interest about a staff exchange between our Departments of Immigration.

Australia:

1. The possibility of future visa delivery co-operation was initially discussed and both Minister Robillard and the Australian Minister of Immigration and Milticultural Affairs agreed in principle to the idea of considering additional locations.

2. Closer formal cooperation in offshore interdiction between Canada and Australia was endorsed in principle.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all other questions stand.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, this is with respect to a question that was brought forward on October 2, 1997. I have risen twice to ask when we would receive an answer. It appears on the Order Paper as Question No. 21.

I would reiterate that this is an unnecessary delay. We are looking for a very simple answer with respect to the whereabouts of certain ministers at a specified time in Quebec.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have made a note of the hon. member's request. I will seek information on Question No. 21.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, with respect, this is the third time that I have requested an answer. I am looking for something a little more specific than “We will get back to you”.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I am sure that the parliamentary secretary will want to take this under advisement.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, I will take it under advisement.

As you know, Mr. Speaker, the questions are addressed to Parliament. Parliament directs them to the minister concerned. It is my understanding in this case that most of the cabinet ministers are involved in the question.

I would say to the hon. member, however, that I regret the delay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is it agreed that all remaining questions be allowed to stand?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Motions For Papers

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to call Motion for the Production of Papers No. 1.

That an Order of the House do issue for That a Humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House copies of all documentation related to the recent provincial Ministers of Health meetings; the Health Care Transition Fund; and the Council of Deputy Ministers of Health and Ministers of Health, specifically, documentation pertaining to: ( a ) dicussions on a National Blood Agency; ( b ) discussions on a new National Pharmacare Program: and ( c ) discussions on a new National Homecare Program.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Notice of Motion for the Production of Papers No. 1, in the name of the hon. member for Charlotte, is acceptable to the government with the reservations stated in the reply and the documents will be tabled immediately.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Subject to the reservations expressed by the parliamentary secretary, is it the pleasure of the House that Notice of Motion No. P-1 be deemed to have been adopted?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that the other Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers be allowed to stand.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is it agreed that the remaining Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers be allowed to stand?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Jim Pankiw, Reform, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order relating to a Motion for the Production of Papers which I placed on the Order Paper on November 18, 199, Motion No. P-8. It has been four months since I requested this information from the government and I would appreciate it if the parliamentary secretary could inform me as to when I may expect a response.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will take the hon. member's request under advisement. I will get back to him as soon as possible.

Supply

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should lower the tax burden on Canadians and offer interest relief to student loan holders in order to address the brain drain crisis which is forcing Canadians to move to the United States where unemployment rates, income tax rates and student debt levels are lower and the standard of living is 25% higher than in Canada.

Mr. Speaker, from the outset, with your agreement in the House, I would like to inform you that I am going to split my time with the hon. member for Kings—Hants who is seconding this motion. I will then speak 10 minutes and, I understand, do questions and comments for five minutes and then he will speak.

I rise on this opposition day motion with some anticipation as we look forward to the budget that will be delivered here in this House on Tuesday, February 24.

We have given a great deal of thought and have debated a great deal of the matters that we will be discussing today. I want to share with the House some of the views that we have in regard to the choices that we will be making in the next few weeks.

I would like to start from the outset by saying that for us in this party, this budget that we will see on February 24 is more than just about numbers. It is not just about a balance sheet. The budget exercise is not just reduced to just calculating what the numbers are and adding them up. All of this is about our country, about the values that we share within our families, our communities and the choices we will make for those communities in the future. The budget will speak to that.

I also think it is important for us to have a cold hard look at the situation we are experiencing in this country economically and how it affects people, how it affects individuals in their lives. The government likes to quote all these economic indicators. They get up in the House and the Minister of Finance talks about the OECD and how we are doing in terms of debt to GDP ratio or whatever it may be. All this also includes the impact that our decisions have on individual Canadians, on families.

When the government talks of its record, I think it is important for all of us in this House to talk of all of the record. What does this record include? It includes a record, a statistic that explains more than anything else the plight of Canadians.

The fact is that disposable income continues to go down in Canada. Simply put, we are poorer today than when the Liberal government was elected in 1993. Unemployment is still very high. Youth unemployment went up in the last month. Poverty is more pronounced today than it was. There are more children living in poverty today than in 1993.

Canadians are saving less. On savings, 2% of their income is going to savings compared to 6% of the American average, 12% of what it was a few years ago.

If we want to talk about the indicators, taxes in Canada are the highest taxes among the G-7 countries.

When I try to assess what the full record is of this government, I cannot help but compare it with the only economy we really compare with, which is the United States. In the United States the unemployment rate is half of what it is in Canada and disposable income is continually rising to the point where the gap has never been more pronounced, more important than it is today.

Let me mention a statistic, a number that tells the story. In the third quarter of 1997 per capita after tax income in the U.S. was a bit more than $30,000 in Canadian funds. My colleagues will actually be surprised by this number. When you hear it the first time, you say it is not possible, but let me quote it to you directly, Mr. Speaker. “Per capita after tax income in Canada was a bit over $17,000”. That is a gap of $13,000 between Canada and the United States. These are our neighbours to the south, the people with whom we compete. We should be on the same footing as they are, yet the gap is incredibly wide. Why? The wrong choices have been made.

I would say right off that the greatest problem facing us is that of the impoverishment of Canadians. Men and women, in their family, in their day to day choices, are unable to make purchases. They are vastly poorer than they were in 1993.

There are more poor children today than there were when this government was elected. Unemployment among young people is at unacceptable levels. The gap between Canadian and American incomes continues to rise.

We believe in the Progressive Conservative Party that it is time this country had a plan for economic growth. That is what we need. This country has been on its heels and on the brakes. Now is the time we allow Canadians to earn more money. If there is to be a balanced budget, if there is to be a fiscal dividend, we happen to believe the first people who should benefit from that are those who have made the biggest sacrifices in the last few years; individual Canadians and Canadian families deserve an increase in their revenues.

When I look at the whole record and see Canadians becoming poorer and poorer I cannot help but come to one solid, unequivocal conclusion. If they have seen their revenue go down they deserve to see it now go up. This should not be a foreign argument to the people in this House.

The Deputy Prime Minister said, after a report was published suggesting that the pay for members of Parliament and cabinet be increased, our pay has gone down long enough and we have lost revenue. I do not quarrel with this, but if that is true for the Deputy Prime Minister then it must be true for the people who voted for the Deputy Prime Minister. This government should be able to understand that.

What do we need to do if we are to allow our friends, our neighbours and the people in our families to begin getting the breaks they deserve? The first thing we have to do is reduce taxes. This country needs less taxes and less debt and, as a consequence, more jobs. That is what will produce jobs in this country.

I want to make our position clear. From the outset in the election campaign we said very clearly that we do not need to wait for the budget to be balanced to offer Canadians tax breaks. They deserve them now. What kind of tax breaks do they deserve? The first people who should benefit are lower income Canadians. We should increase the basic exemption from $6,500 to $10,000. They are the ones who can use it. That would allow us to take thousands of Canadians off the tax rolls. It would allow them to increase their revenues and give families with young children a very important break.

We continue to believe there should be a reduction in personal income taxes. By the way, we are not the only ones who believe this. There are more and more people, whether they are economists, think tanks or universities, saying it is time we gave Canadians a reduction in personal income taxes.

We need to reduce employment insurance premiums. There is a $13 billion surplus in the fund now for no good reason except to reduce the deficit which the fund was never designed for. This is done at the expense of jobs and the unemployed. I see the minister laughing. He thinks it is laughable that Canadians are unemployed. Now he is talking.

I also believe it will be critically important for us to reduce taxes by eliminating the federal surtax of 3%. The time has come. That surtax came upon us because there was a deficit. If the deficit is gone the tax should go.

We also need to index the child tax benefits. The government, by deindexing and allowing this to continue, is taking the equivalent of $160 million out of the pockets of lower income families and their children for the purpose of paying down the deficit. We should return to indexing and introduce a little justice into the system.

We also believe the time has come to reduce student debt. The Prime Minister talks about the millennium fund. Every member of this House has heard about the number one priority for students today. The member for St. John's West has heard about it. He has done excellent work on the question of student interest debt on behalf of our party.

There is a reason for this problem. The consequence of high taxes and high debt in this country has led us to a situation in which we are experiencing a brain drain like never before. We are losing the best and brightest. They are graduating with high debt levels and they are being offered jobs in the United States with higher pay, lower taxes and a higher standard of living.

The consequences for us in the long term development of Canada could be incalculable if we do not address this issue soon by reducing that debt and by reducing taxes. We should have concrete measures, including an interest tax credit and an initiative that will allow us to give a break to students who could reimburse on an income contingency loan program.

I will speak briefly on some other things we believe in, that we are going to make the right choices in terms of our values. We believe we should modify the registered education savings plan to make the contribution tax deductible. We should increase RRSP contributions. Income tax brackets should be indexed in order to stop bracket creep which has brought one Canadian in five on to the tax rolls.

Those are some very concrete ideas for Canada to have once and for all a plan for economic growth for all Canadians.

For clarification, the member for St. John's West is seconding this motion and not the member for Kings—Hants.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member's correction is duly noted. Questions and comments.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Wentworth—Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I compliment the Reform Party at this time. Generally I find when Reformers make their points in debate, while sometimes wrongly thought out, they are always genuine, whereas the member for Sherbrooke has offered the scenario that because disposable income is going down, it is somehow the fault of this government.

He knows disposable income is tied to economic health and he knows that the government of which he was a part ran up an annual deficit of $44 billion and a debt of $600 billion plus. He knows full well that no government can turn that around overnight. This government has reduced the deficit and will reduce the deficit to zero. Will he acknowledge that the situation of which he complains is his former government's fault?

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to hear the member talk about arguments being genuine. Did he not promise to scrap the GST? Is he not the person who promised his constituents he would scrap the GST? Apparently he has discovered some new found righteousness in the position. It is the same thing for helicopters.

Let us for a moment forget our partisan positions. I quote from a memo written to the Minister of Finance by Nesbitt Burns. He would not assume that Nesbitt Burns is a partisan outfit, that it would have a view. This was written to the minister with regard to advice for the upcoming budget:

While the Liberals claim to have slain the deficit dragon without resorting to significant tax hikes, federal tax receipts have still climbed $25 billion over the past four years—courtesy of bracket creep, closed loopholes, and economic growth. The flow-through impact from revenue measures of the past budgets will boost the tax bill by $2.6 billion this year alone.

If there has been any economic growth in Canada it has not been domestic. It is because of the free trade agreement established in 1988.

The same memo states:

The tax wedge between the two countries has already widened to unprecedented levels. Allowing it to widen further would harm competitiveness, stifle job creation, and keep the Canadian dollar on the downtrend. These are not the ingredients for a revival in our country's living standards. There is also strong evidence that the growing tax gap is prompting record numbers of high income Canadian professionals to move south of the border—particularly doctors, educators and engineers.

That is from major financial institution in the country. That is the response it is giving to this Liberal member. Rather than whine and complain, I hope he would face up to these hard realities and offer those who are suffering in this country answers instead of trying to blame everything on another government that was defeated in 1993.

[Gary Lunn, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the leader of the Tory Party for this motion. We are on the eve of a new budget that will be coming down within a few days. This is an issue that I hope all members will take dear to their hearts. It is a very important one.

We talk about the brain drain and I hear people laugh at that. It is for real. I have to agree with the leader. I was visiting family over the weekend. In speaking with my brother-in-law, they are actively pursuing employment south of the border. These are people who were born in Canada, lived in Canada and have been here all their lives.

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his kind words. He did not say them in any partisan tone. I hope the whole debate is that way. What he says is pretty compelling. When it is a brother-in-law and a member of the family, we cannot pretend these are statistics any more. It is happening.

What I am worried about is I see 80% of the graduating students at the University of Waterloo moving to the United States. Who bears the cost of that education? Who goes through all that? Why do they leave? Simple math. It is higher pay, lower taxes.

The Liberals can laugh all they want. I see them laughing on the other side. I do not think it is a laughing matter.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member will appreciate that his time is expired.