House of Commons Hansard #66 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was union.

Topics

Apprenticeship National Standards ActRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-363, an act to require the establishment of national training and certification standards for trades that receive apprenticeship training.

Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this act is to facilitate the setting of national standards of apprenticeship training and certification that will have national recognition. The minister will establish organizations with representation from government and stakeholders to achieve this objective. There will be an annual report to Parliament that is deemed referred to a standing committee.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, on this historic budget day I am pleased to present a petition signed by a number of Canadians.

The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House that our police officers and firefighters are required to place their lives at risk on a daily basis and that employment benefits of police officers and firefighters often do not provide sufficient compensation to families when one of them loses their life in the line of duty.

They would also like to point out that the public mourn that loss of a firefighter or a police officer killed in the line of duty and wish to support in a tangible way the surviving families in their time of need. The petitioners therefore ask Parliament to establish a public safety officers compensation fund for the benefit of families of public safety officers who are killed in the line of duty.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, the following question will be answered today: No. 58. .[Text]

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Could the minister of National Defence indicate when and how many civilian and military jobs will be terminated as a result of the national defence planning guidelines of 1998 and whether these jobs will be replaced by tenders from the private sector?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

York Centre Ontario

Liberal

Art Eggleton LiberalMinister of National Defence

The defence planning guide, DPG, 1998, did not direct any new military personnel reductions. Nor did it assign any new civilian workforce reductions. However, DPG 98 mandates the continuation of reductions resulting from departmental strategies to cope with previous budget reductions and to meet the personnel targets of approximately 60,000 military and 20,000 civilians assigned in the 1994 white paper.

The Canadian forces and the Department of National Defence must be able to deliver the missions which the government defined in the 1994 defence white paper in the most cost effective way possible and within the constraints of available funding. The department is embarking upon new initiatives that may impact upon employment in the support functions of the department and the Canadian forces. Options being considered are various alternative service delivery, ASD, mechanisms such as: inter alia, private sector contracts; in house bids; employee takeover; partnering and collaboration between government and the private sector; and privatizing. Our reviews of ASD initiatives will allow for fair consultation and involvement of all stakeholders and interested parties including management, employees, unions, industry, local communities, and other government departments. Principles are in place to guide decision making on ASD initiatives, and the review of these initiatives from analysis to implementation may take up to 24 months.

It is too soon to tell what the impact upon jobs will be, but the Department of National Defence and the Canadian forces are committed to fair consultation and close involvement of all stakeholders.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is that agreed?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The House resumed from February 20 consideration of the motion that Bill C-19, an act to amend the Canada Labour Code (Part I) and the Corporations and Labour Unions Returns Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Resuming debate with the hon. member for Prince George—Peace River who had approximately five minutes remaining.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

I thought it was more Mr. Speaker, but I will bow to your wisdom. I am sure you have checked Hansard .

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The Chair will afford the first speaker whose speech was interrupted a fair amount of latitude to get his comments in.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will be using the 20 minutes or whatever portion of time you deem I have remaining.

At the outset I wish to indicate that I will endeavour to stay as relevant as possible during my remarks today. I know how important it is to the Speaker that we remain on topic when we address bills and that is my intention.

When I was unfortunately cut off from further debate on Friday, I was at that part in my presentation where I was talking about Bill C-19 as it relates to farmers and as it relates to the transport of farm products and commodities throughout the land. At the end of my remarks I said that despite government claims to the contrary, Bill C-19 will not guarantee that grain will be transported to its destination. I will pick up where I left off.

It was just a couple of years ago in 1995 when western farmers saw rail traffic come to a grinding halt. Now these farmers are haunted by the very real possibility of another rail strike or a lockout this spring because the agreement that brought an end to the 1995 strike expired in December. Bill C-19 will do absolutely nothing to stop that from happening.

As I discovered during debate on Bill C-4, an act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act, which was rammed through the House under closure, this government gives farmers little priority. Farmers are not getting the attention and substantive legislation they deserve from this Liberal government.

On many occasions we have seen work stoppages in the national transportation and grain handling sectors. In 1987 there was a five day dispute between the railways and their union. Late that same year there was a 42 day work stoppage between Prince Rupert Grain Ltd. and the Grain Workers Union which resulted in some very heavy financial losses. In 1991 there was a 16 day dispute between the Department of Transport and the public service union. As I mentioned earlier there was a 20 day work stoppage in 1995 during a dispute between the railways and their unions.

In all of those cases the federal government followed through with back to work legislation. This is a patchwork method of ensuring the continuation of essential services. Both management and unions have little incentive to negotiate in good faith. Both parties come to rely on back to work legislation as a way to eventually end the work dispute but it is divisive and simply means that labour disputes will flare up again all too soon. This will certainly be the case this spring if the rail workers and management cannot come to an agreement. Grain farmers will be saying “Here we go again”.

These stoppages in our transportation system have very serious ramifications for our reputation on the international stage as a reliable shipper of farm commodities. As agriculture critic for the official opposition I can say that—

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am being heckled by members across the way which is a standard operating procedure in the House.

Farmers are very cognizant of these serious ramifications and Canadians are very aware that when these stoppages occur our international reputation is greatly damaged. We all want to protect against this.

There have been several occasions where back to work legislation appeared to be the only alternative to end a dispute and provide relief to those losing thousands, even millions, of dollars due to work stoppage. It is not the only alternative available.

It is not Reform's policy to simply criticize a policy but to proactively come up with concrete alternatives and legislation that will provide substantive change. In the case of labour disputes, we are confident that final offer selection arbitration is the best hope for getting a settlement. It requires both sides to act in good faith and lessens some of the bitter aftermath of a strike or a lockout.

I hope the government members in the House take the time to listen while I elaborate on this process. It is an excellent alternative to back to work legislation that they will find attractive.

Back to work legislation undermines the collective bargaining process. Final offer selection arbitration kicks in only after a union and an employer cannot come to an agreement. Together they must agree on and recommend an arbitrator or arbitration panel. The union and the employer must give the arbitrator a list of the issues they cannot agree on and a list of the issues they have agreed on. For the disputed issues the arbitrator receives from each party a final offer for settlement. The arbitrator will then select one of the final offers. His offer is binding on both parties.

What this means is that both sides will be forced to make reasonable offers. Each will want the arbitrator to pick their offer or they will be forced to live with the offer made by the other party. Therefore to provide a better chance that the arbitrator accepts their offer, I believe that both the union and the employer will make a good attempt at being more than reasonable.

This concept is simple and it avoids prolonged work stoppages or back to work legislation. The entire nature of the collective bargaining process can be improved in the long term. Unions and employers will become more aware of the reality of final offer selection arbitration and will be more inclined to habitually negotiate in good faith. As a result unions and employers will become more focused on negotiations instead of the political ploys and media stunts that are seen frequently in current labour disputes where back to work legislation looms on the horizon.

I would like to digress at this point and explain to viewers back home in a simpler way and use an analogy. In business there is a common practice for partners who are in business together. I am sure you are well aware of this, Mr. Speaker. You have been in business for a number of years in different enterprises over your working life in the real world. I am certain you can appreciate what I am going to talk about.

The reality is that when people enter into a partnership sometimes they are concerned about what may happen in the future. They enter into what is commonly referred to as a shotgun agreement. How does a shotgun agreement work? If you come to an impasse where one of the partners wants to leave the partnership and wants to sell his side to the other partner or see the business sold, the agreement protects the partner who is still in the enterprise.

You have to make a reasonable offer. Under the terms of that agreement, if you put too high a value on your half of the company, let us say you have a 50:50 share in a corporation, the shotgun agreement allows the other partner to say “that is too high, you pay me that amount and instead of me buying you out at x dollars, you buy me out”. This is similar in a way to final offer selection arbitration. It forces both sides in a potential dispute to be reasonable. It forces them to come up with a reasonable offer, because there is a certain amount of fear that if they do not have the most reasonable offer the other side's offer will be accepted.

I use that because a lot of farmers I am pleased to represent are well aware of shotgun agreements and how they work. It might better help them to understand what we are talking about when we talk about final offer selection arbitration and how that could force both sides to be more reasonable and force them to the middle ground.

The federal government has jurisdiction over approximately 10% of the labour force. Federal legislation and the Canadian Labour Code affect 700,000 employees. The federal government has an opportunity and an obligation, I suggest, to set an example in labour relations. The advantages and benefits that would arise from the use of final offer selection arbitration by the federal government have the potential to resonate through the entire Canadian labour force.

As I have said, there are a number of flaws contained in Bill C-19. I am primarily concerned with the substance it lacks in order that farmers can avoid the dire consequences of work stoppages. There are several aspects of this bill that are nothing short of alarming.

Section 109.1 gives the Canada Industrial Relations Board authority to order an employer to release names and addresses of off site workers to union recruiters. I can hardly believe this government would consider this kind of legislation in today's society where we are supposed to be knowledgeable about the risks to personal privacy and safety.

Under no circumstances should individual rights be compromised, particularly to initiate unsolicited contact from any organization or individual.

One of Reform's amendments to Bill C-19 put forward by my hon. colleague would have at least given employees the freedom to choose whether their names and addresses were released. This is a fundamental right and I am astonished that I am even debating this issue in this House. How can this government justify violating an individual's right to privacy? We should think about it.

There are many other options available to ensure that off site workers have access to union information and activities without going to this extreme. This is certainly not the way to go about it. There is no evidence of fairness and balance in a bill which jeopardizes personal rights, privacy and safety.

I want to get to one other issue also contained in the bill that I am very concerned about. Under this section the minister will not guarantee Canadian workers under federal jurisdiction the right to participate in secret ballot representation votes to determine whether a union will represent them. There is a section in this bill that will allow that. We should just think about this for a moment. They will not get a secret vote. This bill is actually an attack on democracy and I feel very strongly about this. It kind of reminds me of another bill.

As I said at the outset, Mr. Speaker, regarding your concern about relevance, I do not want to digress too much but it is very similar to a bill that was recently rammed through this House with the use of closure, Bill C-4, the amendments to the Canadian Wheat Board Act, which I referred to briefly in my remarks earlier this morning. Why does it remind me of that bill? Democracy delayed is democracy denied, and freedom delayed is freedom denied. That is what happened with Bill C-4.

With Bill C-4, this government and the Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board had the opportunity to act and to grant farmers some freedom. What did we see? We saw them completely flout democracy and it has been denied.

I asked the minister if he intends to sit idly by and watch farmers be thrown in jail for protesting what they view as a fundamental issue of democracy and freedom, the right to sell their own product. Obviously with the passage of Bill C-4 he does.

Similarly, Bill C-19 gives the Canada Industrial Relations Board jurisdiction to certify a trade union that does not have a majority support “where, but for the unfair labour practice, the union could reasonably have been expected to have had the support of the majority of the employees in a unit”.

Imagine that. What we see here is an attack on democracy. No secret vote, and it will be left to this Canada Industrial Relations Board to make this arbitrary decision to certify a union despite the fact that it will not have any clear signal whether the majority of the workers in that workplace wish to be represented by that union. Think about this.

Neither the Canada Industrial Relations Board nor any other body has the capacity to rationally discharge a task which involves nothing more than wild speculation. If an employer has committed an unfair labour practice the board should sanction the employer, not deprive workers of their fundamental democratic right to vote on the wisdom of union representation. Certainly I am in agreement with that.

Mr. Speaker, I see you are indicating, unfortunately. It is amazing how quickly time goes when a person is concerned about this legislation and the attack on democracy built into Bill C-19.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am curious that the member would take a position that seems to be contradictory. On the one hand he talks about final offer arbitration or final offer selection as being the panacea to all the problems in the labour movement which would virtually eliminate strikes and take away collective bargaining. It would simply put it into a “you put your best foot forward and I will put mine” and that will be the end of that. Then with the same breath the member talks in terms of protecting the democratic rights of the workers he purports to be representing in this speech. I find those two positions rather contradictory.

Clearly collective bargaining in the labour movement is a time tested tradition that ensures that the workers have their say and have the ability to negotiate for their future and their families.

What the Reform Party would do in this case would be to strip the workers of their democratic right and then on the other hand try to pretend they are champions of their democratic rights because they want them to be able to vote on certification, even if 90% of them have signed cards.

Even Mike Harris in Ontario has not gone as far in the extreme as the Reform Party. I wonder if the member might have some comments on those remarks.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to add my comments.

The audacity of the member opposite knows no bounds. It is just incredible. This is the government whose answer to labour disputes is to legislate people back to work. In the autocratic, top down way in which this Liberal government operates all we have to do is hearken back to pre-Christmas. It is not that long ago. Certainly the hon. member's memory should go back that far to the Canada Post dispute where the Liberals sat on their duffs and did absolutely nothing when they knew that dispute was going to flare up. Everyone in the country knew it was coming but they did nothing. They knew in the end they would simply legislate them back to work.

This is the hon. member's answer on how to respect democracy and how to respect worker rights.

Final offer selection arbitration, despite the opinion of the member opposite, would augment the collective bargaining process.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

An hon. member

It would destroy it.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

It would not destroy it. It is shameful what this Liberal government will do with labour relations and what it is attempting to do with this bill.

The hon. member wondered if I would like to comment. Yet I get up to comment and now he is saying he has heard enough because he does not like what he hears. Let me finish. This is my time. It is questions and comments.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The hon. member has raised such passions. There are so many people who wish to ask questions. We have to keep it moving.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask my hon. colleague from the Reform Party what he thinks about the fact that this bill contains no anti-scab provisions like those Quebec adopted in harmony in 1977.

In a situation where consensus was lacking on this sensitive matter, even in 1985 when Mr. Bourassa's Liberals were elected, the Quebec premier refused to give in to the demands of Mr. Scowen, one of his MNAs, and even a minister at one point.

Later on, in 1991, the Conseil du Patronat, despite a judgement in its favour from the Supreme Court, backed down in light of the social peace and harmony that had reigned in Quebec since the passing of the anti-scab legislation in 1977.

I would like to draw his attention to this letter, which I received from one of his fellow British Columbians, a Mr. Dave Cort of Cranbrook, who writes:

The right to honour picket lines is a simple right that all private citizens may use should she/he desire. However if you happen to work for a railway in this country you do not have this right and must face the humiliation and degradation day after day, time after time as long as the Canada Labour Code in its present form forces working class people to cross picket lines.

I would like to hear my hon. colleague's opinion on the fact that this time the government lacks the courage to amend the Canada Labour Code in that direction.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his comments and his question. Unlike the comment which came from across the way, he certainly brought forward some valid points. Unlike the Liberals who rise in debate on this very important legislation, obviously the member has given some thought to it.

He refers to the fact that he does not see anything specific in the bill which deals with anti-scab workers. I hate that term. It is very derogatory.

My understanding is that the bill gives the real power to the Canada Industrial Relations Board, the CIRB, to decide on the question of replacement workers. We have some concerns about that because the board will be under incredible pressure from the unions. The unions will say that replacement workers in a strike situation should not be allowed, even if it puts the corporation in an untenable position, in a position where the corporation might actually have to close its doors.

I speak not on behalf of corporations when I say that, but on behalf of the workers themselves. We only have to look at the situation which developed in Edmonton where the meat packing plant had to shut down. Ultimately who was hurt? It was the workers themselves who were out of work and who lost their jobs.

When I speak to this issue it is not only out of concern for the shareholders and the company, but for the workers themselves.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Guelph—Wellington Ontario

Liberal

Brenda Chamberlain LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Labour

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the hon. member that on June 2 the people chose Liberals to govern.

When we ran we heard about Bill C-19 on the campaign trail. There was a great deal of support for Bill C-19. I question the member being so vehement about it because he must have heard the same things.

I will read a letter which I received from a farmer out in western Canada: “Bill C-19 with section 87.7 is an important first step in preventing labour disputes from stopping the flow of grain out of our ports. I urge you to facilitate the rapid passage of Bill C-19 with section 87.7 intact. The future of the western Canadian grain industry will be very positively impacted by this step”.

I would urge the member to act on behalf of his constituents.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely amazing, astounding actually, how Liberal members opposite can distort the facts and what is in the legislation.

If the hon. member had been in the House during my very brief speech on Friday, I referred to the fact that there are some people out there who are lobbying all members of this House to pass this legislation. Why is that? Because they say it is better than nothing. I said in my opening remarks that the official opposition wants to see legislation which is much better than just better than nothing.

We have serious concerns about this legislation. The reality is that this bill does nothing to help move grain from the farm gate to the port. History will show that is where the disruption takes place. The Liberals brought forward Bill C-19 which narrowly defines how to settle a dispute problem at the port. They are holding it up as the be all and end all. It is absolutely ridiculous and she knows it.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I should tell you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the hon. member for Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans. I will therefore be making a 10-minute speech.

We are debating Bill C-19, an act to amend the Canada Labour Code, Part I. This bill stems from another bill, Bill C-66, which died on the Order Paper last spring because, six months before the end of the traditional four-year mandate, the current Prime Minister decided to call an election, thus taking some opposition parties unawares. He saw what was happening in the maritimes and, sensing that the Employment Insurance Act was not going down too well, he chose to take the other political parties by surprise. Many bills, including this one, died on the Order Paper as a result.

He probably made the right decision from an election point of view, since he kept his majority, although the actual number of Liberal members is lower.

Despite this delay, the problem with Bill C-19 is the same as with calling an election early: it leaves some unfinished business.

In many respects, as our critic on this issue, the hon. member for Trois-Rivières, indicated, there are many improvements, many positives. But there are also serious deficiencies.

What are these main deficiencies? First, RCMP employees are not included. The bill does not address their expressed wish to become subject to the labour code, to be unionized.

It also falls short of the expectations of federal employees, the Public Service Alliance of Canada. Government employees are subject to the Public Service Staff Relations Act instead of the Labour Code.

Incidentally, federal public service employees do not enjoy the same kind of job security as their Quebec counterparts. There is not as much job security in the federal public service. One only has to look, for example, at the cuts being made in the Quebec City region by the defence department, which are affecting large numbers of people. Many federal public servants are left to fend for themselves, because these cuts have been made over a three-year period that will end at the end of March, with no replacement program and no early retirement program in place.

What is the federal government doing? It is in the process of privatizing its public service. The public service has been trying to continue to provide government services by contracting out, which is a strange way of doing things. This is not the object of today's debate. I just wanted to say that, unfortunately, the Canada Labour Code does not apply to these public servants.

The Bloc Quebecois opposes some of the proposed amendments to the Canada Labour Code because they do not meet Quebeckers' needs. I do not know if they meet the needs of people in the other regions of the country—I will leave it to the other parties to judge—but we want to protect Quebeckers' interests, even if the Canada Labour Code affects only 10% of unionized workers in Quebec.

There are three groups of workers in Quebec. First, there are those who are not unionized and who, of course, are not protected by collective agreements. Nothing will change for these workers. Then there are those who are regulated by the Quebec labour code, which includes provisions prohibiting the use of replacement workers, commonly called scabs. Finally, the third and last group is those 10% of Quebeckers who are subject to the Canada Labour Code.

Who are they? They are people working in banks, in interprovincial and international transportation, airports obviously and all the airport transportation companies, all the airlines, broadcasting, telecommunications, harbour operations, longshoremen and grain handlers.

I would like to take a closer look at the last two categories, because in the Quebec City region right now there is a strike that, for a number of reasons, has dragged on in the Port of Quebec. The same parties may not always be at fault, but it is recognized that, since the introduction of anti-scab legislation in Quebec, strikes—and this is important—are 35% shorter than before. Anti-scab legislation is therefore one way of limiting the length of strikes. It does not increase, but decreases, the length of strikes, a very important point.

I was listening to what the Reform member had to say. Although he is opposed, he said that strikes should not go on too long. The very benefit of anti-scab legislation is that it prevents strikes from dragging on longer than necessary. I remember some long strikes in Quebec, for instance that of the Ogilvie workers, because they are in the grain sector.

This brings me to another point. Why grain and not potatoes? Why not butter? Why not other food products considered essential, such as milk? Why grain? We Quebeckers import grain because we do not produce enough of our own. We import, or receive I should say, western grain and then ship it to international markets through our ports, particularly those along the St. Lawrence Seaway, but we also use it to raise hogs, cattle, and so on.

So, what has been the result in Quebec City? There have been cases of violence. The absence of anti-scab legislation affects not just the length of strikes, but the incidence of violence. I am not condoning violence. I do not think violence should be condoned. But the fact remains that, when a strike drags on and scabs might be or are used, the result is almost always violence in labour relations. When violence occurs before a strike ends, there can be physical effects and problems in terms of labour relations.

It is not a matter of just settling a labour dispute, but of settling it well. The parties, and this is the advantage of a negotiated settlement, must reach a collective agreement that they both will honour following negotiations. The resulting work atmosphere is better as is productivity. The company is better off in terms of profits, and the workers are better off, because greater profits mean better benefits and collective agreements for the workers.

This should be the aim of the Canada Labour Code. Instead, measures in these areas remain for the most part unchanged and a practice that even Quebec employers have shunned since 1977, that is the use of replacement workers, will be allowed to continue.