Mr. Speaker, let me first say on behalf of the government how much we appreciate the comments made by the leaders of the various parties, with the exception of the last speaker, who I think have approached this matter is a forthright way, trying to come to grips with the real issues that are at stake instead of engaging in the kind of cheap politics that we have heard for the past 20 minutes.
It is unfortunate that a once great party has now taken up wallowing in the bile of its self-defeat over the last two elections and is no longer prepared to deal with issues in a serious way.
Let me point out one simple fact that the leader of the opposition, who seems to have had a striking case of amnesia, has forgotten. When he was a member of the cabinet, the previous prime minister and his government made a decision to deploy troops and did not get around to asking Parliament for 12 weeks what its opinion was. Now all of a sudden here he stands with this great smile of indignation, with crocodile tears pouring around his ankles, saying “for goodness sake, we are having a debate tonight and, my goodness, it took you a day to get around to it”.
What hypocrisy coming from a member of a government that had no interest, no commitment and no engagement to bring Parliament into it whatsoever. That is the problem.
Even during this event, where other opposition parties had the good sense to request briefings, and were so given, members of the Conservative Party could not quite get themselves around to making the call or asking for those briefings. We called them and said “tell us what you are prepared to do”. We never heard back from them.
With respect to a joint committee, I would like to tell the hon. member, because he is not around Parliament very much, that we do have standing committees on foreign affairs and defence. We meet regularly. They, too, have asked for briefings, which they will be given. It would help if the hon. member spent a little more time in this place finding out what is going on. Then he might be able to get his facts straight.
When it comes to some of the questions, I think they are legitimate and proper questions. First let us talk for a moment about the basic position of Canada in this matter. This is not a matter of simply following what the United States wants or, I should say to the hon. leader of the New Democratic Party, what the Labour leader in the United Kingdom has asked for, Canada's co-operation. This is a question of whether we as an independent country make a choice as to what our basic national interest is.
I would say our basic national interest, as properly elaborated by members of this House, is to say clearly the danger that Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi government represent by their unwillingness to abide by the ceasefire resolution, continuing with the manufacture and potential development of weapons of mass destruction and carrying biological weapons presents a clear and imminent danger to Canadians as well as to everybody else around the world.
Therefore we must find ways of stopping him. We know from past history that Saddam Hussein is not limited by any sense of moral compunction. He recognizes no restraint of the normal civilized world.
I spent ten days in Iraq negotiating the release of Canadian hostages back in the late 1980s. It is a forbidding place. More important, it is an immoral place from the point of view of that government.
By his use of biological and chemical weapons against the Kurds, against his own people, against the minority of his own people, he demonstrates how dangerous a person he can be, and that continued possession of those weapons of mass destruction represents a clear and present danger to all of us. We must take action. Several members have said “Why isn't Canada being more diplomatic?” I can say we have been very busy on that diplomatic front.
I was in the Middle East before Christmas meeting with virtually all the major Arab countries to talk to them specifically about the issue of a peace process on the one side and the situation of Iraq on the other, trying to find what solutions there might be, trying to build some bridges through the Arab world into Iraq to say this is the way to go.
We have taken actions in the United Nations to support very clearly the easing of the economic embargo. We supported the secretary general in his interest of raising the limits on which the oil for peace program can be implemented, so we could bring money and support and resources to the children of Iraq and the people of Iraq.
There is one basic problem. Saddam Hussein does not want to play. He does not recognize that. We could solve this diplomatically in 10 seconds if Saddam Hussein simply lived up to his obligations. That is all. He signed a paper, he agreed to the conditions and he could tomorrow find a total solution if he simply lived up to his responsibilities, but he refuses to do so.
Over the past seven years we have found one provocation after another, a refusal to live up to those conditions, to a point finally where the report of UNSCOM, not the United States, not the United Kingdom, but the United Nations itself has clearly put in writing that they have a great apprehension about the continued capacity of Saddam Hussein to manufacture biological and chemical weapons. If something is not done, that capacity will become fully developed and he can not only use it for his own purposes, but also use it to transfer into the hands of other terrorists or other rogue states.
There does come a time when some decision has to be made. Even as I am here on the floor of this House, we are continuing our efforts at the United Nations to see if there is some way of getting a further resolution of the security council to provide a way in which both the incentive to the Iraqis to an easing of the sanctions can be developed and passed.
When the leader of the Conservatives scoffs at the idea that we do not want to emphasize or exaggerate the risk, what kind of topsy-turvy world does this gentleman live in? I do not understand what he is talking about. He wants us to go and deliberately show that there is a split. He wants Canada to take the lead to say there is no agreement. Or should we be working as hard as we can over the next period of time to try to get that agreement, to try to work with these people, to get the kind of resolution to the security council that might work. That is what I was saying today. Let us try to do what is pragmatic and useful.
I would suggest one thing that this House should consider. It goes back to what the Prime Minister said. These are difficult decisions. I think the Leader of the Opposition said the same thing. No one relishes it. One thing that might occur as part of the diplomatic initiative that may be required is to demonstrate solidarity, to show that there is total resolve among civilized countries that we are willing to stand up for basic principles and ideals. That is the way we have to do it.
Let us get a message to Saddam Hussein that we are prepared to take the action necessary to protect the lives of Canadians, the lives of the people in the Middle East and the lives of the people around the world.
It has been pointed out that we took the initiative on the land mines. That is true for one basic reason. Here was a weapon system that had a clear and present danger to lives of innocent civilians. There is no real difference in this issue. We are trying to deal with an individual or a government that is preparing and developing massive weapons of the most diabolical kind that can be unleashed upon the people of this world. Therefore we have to take a stand to make sure they are not used.
In the same way we want to eliminate land mines we want to eliminate biological and chemical weapons. We want Iraq to live up to the convention it signed and we want to find a way to ensure that there is a basic standard in this world that says you should not use these weapons against innocent people. That is the dilemma that we face.
I certainly am in full agreement with those who have spoken so far in saying that we also have to take into account what the repercussions of this must be. That is why we are here in the House today. This is not, as some member suggested, where Parliament is going to make a decision. We are consulting with the House. I would say to the hon. Leader of the Opposition he knows this well. I ask him to look at the record. He knows that on questions like Bosnia we have had full debates and briefings in the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and the defence committee. We have brought the debates to the House.
Ultimately I must say this. The final decision rests with the Government of Canada. We will use and develop the best kind of exchange of views of Parliament, but ultimately we must decide. The Prime Minister said so in question period today. We are here to, first, find out what the reflective views of constituents from across Canada are about what that decision should be, the general thrust of it.
We can certainly continue to work with Parliament in a variety of ways, and we have in the past, but we cannot abrogate the responsibility to make a decision which, as the Prime Minister said, the cabinet will consider tomorrow.
We can then follow through on the kinds of continuing dialogue and exchange of information to ensure that Parliament is fully involved in the ensuing developments.
We should not assume—I was a little struck by the comments of the Leader of the Opposition in question period—that we may be near war. I dearly hope not. I do not think we should be even using the language of jingoism in this case.
What we should be saying is that we want to avoid war at all costs. At the same time, we must work to ensure that that war is not leashed upon us through biological and chemical weapons. That is why we must take a stand to prevent that happening in the most effective way possible.
Given the kind of support we have heard so far with the exception of the Conservative Party, we think we can go into cabinet with a better sense of where Canadians are coming from and the kinds of directions they would like us to follow.
Parliament is really very much the crucible in which these decisions will be looked at, will be examined. We will continue to make that commitment to do so.
I would say that whatever decision is taken tomorrow by the primem minister and the cabinet to respond to the request that is made, we will also continue to have time. Let us not get ourselves into some kind of frantic feeding frenzy that all of a sudden we have to rush to the barricades.
We are prepared to say to Saddam Hussein that we will, if forced to the very last resort, be prepared to support military action.
In the meantime, I believe that a show of solidarity, a show of unity among the western countries will help greatly to get a more peaceful solution. I may be wrong. I may have to say unfortunately it did not work because this is an imperfect world and there are imperfect people in it. No one is more imperfect than Saddam Hussein in this kind of question.
Let us devote our attention and our commitment to the kind of consensus that we hope to develop through this parliamentary debate to ensure that Canada can continue to play a role in conflict resolution, to take the leadership that we can. We would like to take more leadership if we are on the security council. We hope members of Parliament will help us get there next fall.
In the meantime, we will do everything in our power, everything in our resources to try to find that solution. It is important that in tonight's debate for those who are listening in that the message is clear to the Iraqi government and to President Saddam Hussein that we stand with the United Nations and the resolutions that were passed beginning in 1990 and 1991 right until last November when they said any sort of breach by the Iraqis of the commitments made in the ceasefire agreement of 1991 constitutes a threat to international peace and security.
We went looking for a mandate and the Leader of the Conservatives was quite happy to quote for me. I am glad he did. It saves me the trouble of doing so. That still stands. There are resolutions passed by the security council as late as November saying that any breach of the agreements made in 1991 presents a clear threat to peace and security and that therefore there is the kind of authorization through the security council and its record of decision in the past seven years to try to provide that kind of mandate.
Let us see what happens to the security council in the next week as the United Kingdom and other nations along with ourselves are trying to work toward a resolution that can strengthen that position and also provide the Iraqis with the incentive they need in terms of being able to alter the terms of the embargo or the sanctions to try to find a solution.
That is perhaps the best balance of a diplomatic approach, to provide the carrot and the stick at the same time, but we need to have both in this case because that is the only language that Saddam Hussein understands.