Debates of March 11th, 1998

Petitions

[Maurice Vellacott, Reform, Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition signed by 496 people from Saskatchewan who want the Young Offenders Act to be repealed and replaced with measures that hold young criminals accountable for their actions.

[Maurice Vellacott, Reform, Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I have a second petition which is signed by 275 people who express a very deep concern about the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission showing a very decided bias against Christian broadcasters by licensing the pornographic Playboy channel while on the same day, July 22, 1997, refusing to license four religious television broadcasters, including the International Catholic Broadcast and three multi-denominational applicants.

They view as hostile to them the CRTC's systematic refusal to license Christian broadcasters while at the same time consistently licensing sexually explicit and violent programming.

These petitioners state their constitutional right to freedom of religion, conscience and expression. They appeal to Parliament to review the mandate of the CRTC and direct the CRTC to administer a new policy which will encourage the licensing of religious broadcasters.

[Paul Steckle, Liberal, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure this afternoon to present petitions regarding the ongoing gasoline price saga.

The petitioners are calling upon the Parliament of Canada to adopt legislation which would require gasoline companies to give 30 days' written notice to the Minister of Natural Resources of an impending significant increase in the price of gasoline, that is, an increase of over 1% of the current pump price per litre, and that such notice should also contain the reason or reasons for the increase and when it will take effect.

Questions On The Order Paper

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Nunziata)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Motions For Papers

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all notices of motions for the production of papers be allowed to stand.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Nunziata)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Nelson Riis, NDP, Kamloops, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I was looking over the agenda of the House for the next little while. Could you give some indication of when we will start to deal with some really serious issues of importance to Canadians?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Nunziata)]

That is not an appropriate point of order.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-8, an act respecting an accord between the Governments of Canada and the Yukon Territory relating to the administration and control of and legislative jurisdiction in respect of oil and gas, as reported (without amendment) from the committee.

Canada-Yukon Oil And Gas Accord Implementation Act

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

moved that the bill be concurred in.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Nunziata)]

When shall the bill be read the third time? By leave now?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

moved that the bill be read the third time and passed.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to address the House on Bill C-8, the Canada-Yukon Oil and Gas Accord Implementation Act.

I am pleased to join my colleagues in support of this legislation which promotes the historic changes that are occurring in Yukon.

Hon. members have heard how Bill C-8 will provide for the transfer of the administration and control of onshore oil and gas from Canada to the Yukon government. It will also give the territorial government the authority to legislate all aspects of oil and gas.

Passage of this proposed act is a necessary and logical step in the Yukon's political evolution.

For too long Ottawa has been making decisions for Whitehorse and for Yukoners. The time has come to turn control over to those who live in Yukon so that they may deal with the issues on a daily basis. That is why the devolution of all remaining provincial-type powers and programs of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development in Yukon to the Yukon government continues to be a priority for this government.

Canada and Yukon have worked together for more than a decade to respond to northerners' desire for more control over their lives. The process of placing responsibility where it belongs, at the local level, is well under way. We are providing the platform for northerners to find solutions to northern concerns.

For several years now, Yukon has drawn certain advantages from the transfer of responsibilities. At the present time, it delivers provincial-type programs in such areas as education, health and economic development.

The federal government, however, still administers Crown lands, forestry, water, environmental issues, mines and minerals, and of course oil and gas.

This current undertaking to transfer oil and gas jurisdiction shows the government's constant determination to give provincial-type jurisdictions to the territories. The administration and control of oil and gas resources constitute significant and obvious provincial-type functions.

I cannot overemphasize the importance of transferring this role to the people of the Yukon. Natural resources lie at the very heart of the Yukon economy. Natural resource development is essential to the territory's prosperity in the 21st century, as well as to its residents' survival.

The present government is agreeable to Yukon administration and control of oil and gas resources. Transfer of this program represents an important step in the political and economic evolution of Yukon.

Subsequently, of course, there will have to be a transfer to the Yukon government of other provincial-type powers and programs on its territory. To that end, in January 1997 the federal government announced a proposal for making such transfers.

I will give a brief explanation of what the transfer of responsibilities for oil and gas means to the Yukon and its economy.

For too long Yukon has had to watch its oil and gas resources go untapped because of uncertainty over land and resource ownership. That is changing. Our ongoing negotiations with Yukon First Nations and efforts to finalize the remaining land claims in the near future will soon set the stage for a renewal of oil and gas activities.

The move to transfer onshore oil and gas resources to Yukon will strengthen northern independence and provide stable, predictable revenue to the territorial government and Yukon First Nations who have signed land claims agreements.

Once Canada transfers responsibility, it will no longer be directly involved in managing oil and gas resources in Yukon. Canada will, however, maintain jurisdiction over offshore areas.

With the transfer the federal government will pay Yukon the moneys it has collected in onshore petroleum revenues.

Once the transfer is complete, Yukon will collect the annual revenues from the Kotaneelee project which are valued at approximately $1.5 million per year. These revenues will be shared with the six Yukon First Nations that have land claims agreements in effect.

The Yukon will enact new territorial legislation that will allow it to address exploration, development, conservation and environmental and safety issues. This new territorial legislation will provide for a management and regulatory regime that is generally modelled after existing regimes in Canada.

Bill C-8 would allow the governor in council to transfer the legislative powers to Yukon once the territorial legislation is in place.

The bill before us today and the transfer process have the wholehearted support of the Yukon government. Setting the pace of the transfer, the territorial government said the time had now come for it to take control of its own oil and gas resources.

The Yukon First Nations also support the bill. Once passed, it will provide them stable and predictable revenues, as well as signed land claims agreements, which will help them move toward self-sufficiency and financial independence.

I would like to congratulate representatives of the Yukon First Nations and the Yukon government who have been working together to develop a system to jointly manage oil and gas resources in the Yukon.

This is a historical alliance which bodes well for the development of the Yukon and further transfers of powers to the territory. This close co-operation has become even closer as a result of consultations held by the federal government and the Yukon over the past few years, which led to the transfer of responsibilities for oil and gas resources as proposed in the bill before us.

The bill has also the support of the industry. Bill C-8 will help create a stable and predictable environment, which in turn will attract new ventures and open up new opportunities to the area.

Passage of the bill will send a clear signal to Yukoners that Canada is committed to fostering economic development in their territory.

In conclusion, I would like to mention that all those involved in the work of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development support this bill and approved its decision to send it back to the House without amendments.

In view of the widespread support for this major initiative, I urge my distinguished colleagues to join me in supporting this bill.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased at long last to rise and speak to Bill C-8, the Canada-Yukon oil and gas accord implementation act.

This bill has been around for a long time. It was allowed to die at the end of the last Parliament only to return in this Parliament to be bounced on and off the Order Paper again and again. I can only assume that the hesitancy of the government to deal with this bill has something to do with the dismal progress being made in finalizing the Yukon land claims that are before the government and that in fact were passed in the last Parliament.

Generally, I and my party support this bill and the principles involved simply because all the stakeholders involved in this process generally support the bill. The principles of the bill are to be applauded. However we certainly do have some concerns with this bill, as we do with so many other bills that the government introduces and deals with in this House. The bill goes part way toward achieving its objectives but unfortunately not all the way.

This bill reflects the government's recognition of the important role of northern oil and gas exploration in the political evolution of the Yukon Territory. Canada's territories are the site of one-quarter of Canada's remaining discovered petroleum and half of Canada's estimated potential oil and gas resources. Control over oil and gas exploration and development is the key to the economic well-being of the territories.

This bill is important to the economic future of the Yukon and is in fact in accordance with many of Reform's positions on issues.

First of all the bill calls for the devolution of province-like powers to the Yukon Territory. By transferring administrative and legislative control over oil and gas to the Yukon Territory, the federal government is demonstrating some degree of commitment to the Yukon Territory's political evolution. We support any effort that increases provincial or territorial control and decreases federal control over natural resources, including oil and gas.

Second, this bill concurs with Reform's belief in the equality of all provinces. While Reform supports increased power for the Yukon government, the powers held by the territory should not exceed those held by the provinces.

This bill does not transfer any powers greater than those held by the provinces under sections 92, 92(a) and 95 of the Constitution Act, 1867. As has been reiterated, this equality among provinces is absolutely essential to the equal treatment of all Canadians.

While Reform is supportive of this legislation, certain aspects of the legislation raise important questions. It appears that through the devolution of province-like powers, the federal government intends to move the Yukon Territory toward provincial status. If this is true, it is important that the federal government start treating the territory as a province. This means that like other provinces the Yukon government should have some negotiating power in the settlement of aboriginal land claims.

Instead of giving the Yukon government the opportunity to participate in the negotiating process however, the government is retaining the authority to override any territorial government objections to the way in which land claims are settled. The federal government is doing this by retaining the right to take back control of Yukon lands for the settlement and implementation of land claims.

In recognition of the unique situation in the north, I would agree it is important that this legislation respect aboriginal land claims and settlement rights. It is also important that the legislation not diminish aboriginal treaty rights nor conflict with existing wildlife, environmental and land management legislation under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

The issue here is not so much the protection of aboriginal rights as it is an issue of heavy-handed control by the federal government. If the government were to settle a land claim in any one of the 10 provinces, one can be certain that a provincial government would be very active in the negotiating process. Why then would the government withhold that same negotiating power from the Yukon government?

While the federal government protects the interests of First Nations peoples in the Yukon, the territorial government should have the opportunity to protect the interests of all residents of the Yukon Territory, native and non-native alike.

This provision also hinders future oil and gas exploration development. Oil and gas companies may be slow to invest in exploration and development projects that at a later date may be affected by the settlement and implementation of land claims.

It had previously been anticipated that negotiations for all of the Yukon First Nations would have concluded by February 1997. This anticipated date was then extended to July 1997. As of today, only half of the Yukon First Nations have reached agreements while the remaining seven agreements are still being negotiated.

In order to instil confidence in potential investors, the government must develop and adhere to a strict time line for land claim resolution. I would therefore urge the government to resolve these land claims as expeditiously as possible with the full participation of the Yukon government so that potential investors can confidently proceed with oil and gas development in the Yukon Territory.

There are also concerns regarding the government's retention of the right to take measures in the event of a sudden oil supply shortfall. This would be in compliance with Canada's international obligations as outlined in the International Energy Agency oil sharing agreement.

The same international obligations were responsible for the introduction and implementation of the national energy program. Westerners need not be reminded of the disastrous impact the national energy program had on Alberta's economy during the last so-called energy crisis.

Because of the very nature of the north, the Yukon economy is extremely dependent on oil and gas revenues. It will therefore suffer even greater hardship should the federal government deem it necessary to implement controls like those espoused during the last energy crisis. There must be some commitment by the government to consider the impact of its actions on the Yukon economy and on the social and economic well-being of the Yukon peoples in the event of an oil supply shortfall or energy crisis.

The legislation affecting the Yukon in this respect should set the precedent for other provinces, resulting in amendments to the existing legislation that would protect all provinces from economic disasters like that brought upon Alberta by the national energy program. If the political evolution of the Yukon territory is to proceed, the federal government must commit to consultations with the Yukon government to find a co-operative solution to any energy shortfall.

The most positive aspect of this legislation is the economic power it confers upon the Yukon Territory. Not only will the Yukon government have jurisdiction over exploration, development, conservation and management of oil and gas, but over resource revenues.

This legislation allows the territory to raise revenues by any mode or system of taxation in respect of oil and gas in the territory. It also gives the territorial government control over the export of oil and gas from that territory. This bill will reduce the Yukon Territory's economic dependence on the federal government, allowing it to develop its own economy like the Canadian provinces.

However, there are concerns regarding the sharing of resource revenues with the federal government. The federal government still intends to collect a portion of the annual oil and gas revenues beyond an initial amount of $3 million to offset transfer payments to the territory which differs from the process of equalization in the provinces.

Also, I might add that this same provision does not apply in the First Nations land claims settlements in the Yukon. The First Nations collect all of the oil and gas resource revenue from oil and gas development within their territory.

The government's share of the Yukon Territory's revenues after the initial $3 million could go as high as 80% of those revenues. I doubt that this level of revenue sharing would ever be tolerated by the existing provinces.

Despite its shortcomings, this legislation represents an important first step in the political evolution of the north and has received support from all the concerned parties. This legislation is part of a greater process that involves the devolution of control not only over oil and gas but over education, health care and economic development in the Yukon Territory.

This legislation has the potential to lead the Yukon government down the road of political evolution, but only if the federal government is committed to treating the Yukon as a developing province and not some second class political entity.

For these reasons we support this legislation but with some reservations about the method of implementation.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today at third reading of the bill to implement the agreement between the Government of Canada and the Government of the Yukon on oil and gas.

If the House will permit me, I want to digress a little to begin with. The other day, I listened to a Reform member tell us that the Bloc Quebecois was concerned only about Quebec and that anything outside of it was of no interest at all to them. I promised myself that I would respond to that allegation the next time I spoke. Not only is the Bloc speaking today on the bill, but I wish to point out that I have in fact visited the Yukon on a number of occasions.

It is important the Bloc assume some responsibility toward native nations outside Quebec as well. As the trustee of the native peoples, the federal government can make decisions in British Columbia that affect Quebec. I think we are acting responsibly by giving serious consideration to the type of legislation before us and by focussing on the priorities of the native peoples first and foremost.

We have before us today a bill providing for decision making to be transferred from the central government to a territorial one, however within the Yukon Territory, there are 14 native nations. I think it important to look carefully at the native issue in bills such as this one.

Today, at third reading, we are looking at a bill to implement provisions of the Canada-Yukon accord signed on May 28, 1993. At that time, the government undertook to introduce a bill, which it first did in the last Parliament and which we are now going to enact in this one.

We are, of course, talking about control of oil and gas resources. The Yukon will be able to administer and control exploitation of oil and gas resources on its territory. These are new legislative powers that are being given to the Yukon. They are similar to those that have been given to other provinces in their respective areas of jurisdiction.

It will therefore be up to the Government of Quebec—my colleagues mentioned jurisdictions earlier—and to the Yukon government to regulate and manage oil and gas activities. When we talk about the exploitation of resources, we are talking about ordinary, concrete concepts, no surprises. We are talking about gas and oil exploration, naturally, about about their marketing, production, and preservation as well, because we know that this is the kind of enterprise where vigilance is required with respect to the environment and the preservation of natural resources.

These are the kinds of jurisdiction that have now devolved to the Yukon government: the environment, exports, security and, of course, the establishment and collection of revenue. Whereas the federal government was the one to do so, now it is up to the Yukon government to set the tax base and collect revenue.

The Yukon government must enact legislation based on the legislation existing elsewhere in the country. And, naturally, like the federal, the Yukon must not enact legislation that exceeds other provinces' jurisdictions. In other words, we do not want it to have special status that goes beyond the jurisdictions and concessions made to other provinces with respect to the decentralization of oil and gas resources.

I also think it important to tell people, as I do each time, where the Yukon is on the map. Our viewers and those listening know that it is in the western part of the country. In fact, it is 5,000 kilometres from here. But I think it is also important to put it in the context of the native issue, which is very important in Western Canada.

To the north of the Yukon is Alaska, which is an American state, as everyone knows. However, animals that are important to native hunting and fishing, the wildlife and the fish, do not necessarily respect borders. There are typical examples of that, with the Porcupine caribou herd, among others, whose calving grounds are in Alaska but whose migrations take it to the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.

Therefore, it is important to know there is to the north an American state that does not belong to Canada. However, the wildlife roaming the continent does not necessarily respect borders. It must be remembered that natives attach great importance to this. This is why there are often agreements between countries on jurisdiction over wildlife, the environment and the caribou herd migration.

To the east are the Northwest Territories. In fact, there is a bill that might be before us this afternoon and that will affect the Gwich'in, the Dene, the Metis, the Dogrib nations, and those from the Deh Cho regions. These are all Northwest Territories regions located in the Mackenzie Valley. It is rather interesting that we are talking this afternoon about the far west and that we will be dealing in a few minutes with their neighbours, for quite another reason, but let us say it is important to indicate where the Yukon is.

To the south lies British Columbia, with an extremely rich native culture, where almost 220 native communities live, with all the resulting problems and benefits.

I have been to British Columbia several times. It is nice to see how the native culture has influenced the white culture and how the different cultures interact.

There were also disadvantages. Federally and provincially, there are enormous problems with land claims. Everyone is aware of the debate on the Nisga'a issue and the recent Delgamuukw decision.

Many decisions have been made by courts in that part of the country, and it seemed important to me to put them in perspective. Incidentally, representatives of the aboriginal peoples of the Yukon are probably listening in this afternoon and I take this opportunity to salute them.

I remember they were here when we passed the bill on self-government and claims settlement. These people fought long and hard and finally won after having negotiated for 21 years.

I remember very clearly that they were up there in the public gallery and they were very pleased. I think that the security service had made an exception and allowed the representatives of the aboriginal nations to stand up and applaud with us all this great victory regarding their land claims and self-government.

I would like to salute them and, for fear of missing one, I will name them all: there are 14 nations. The first nations of Little Salmon-Carmacks, Selkirk, Tr'on dek Hwech'in, the Ross River Dena Council, the Liards, the first nation of Carcross-Tagish, the aboriginal people of White River, the first nations of Kluane, Kwanlin Dun, Champagne and Aïshihik, the aboriginal people of Nacho Nyak Dun, the Tlingits from the Teslin area and the Gwitch'in Vuntut first nation.

I will not be surprised, when I go back to my office later, to get a call from Hansard editors asking me about the meaning and, particularly, the spelling of the names I just mentioned. I felt important to name these nations, and I will get back to them later on—perhaps much to the despair of those responsible for publishing the Hansard —when I will give you an idea of the progress made in the negotiations to achieve self-government for each of these nations.

It is very important in the current debate to know where these nations are in terms of their claims to achieve self-government status. They are looking at how oil and gas will be developed on their lands. They are directly concerned, because they will soon have agreements on their lands and their self-government.

The Yukon is a region of the country that has a rich history. Everyone knows about the Klondike gold rush. I went there several times, including Dawson City, and it is really sad to see how the landscape was almost totally destroyed by mining operations. This shows how important it is for aboriginal people to at least have a say in legislation such as the bill before us.

That part of the country was also severely affected by the development of natural resources other than gold, lumber for instance. The landscape was destroyed and there was no sharing of wealth. This is why now, as we approach a new millennium, aboriginal people are getting together and truly want to play an active role in the decision-making process.

At the time, their landscape was totally changed, along with the lives of these people. Their hunting and fishing traditions were greatly affected. We only left them piles of rocks, we did not share any wealth with them. Explorers and companies came. They developed the landscape, but they also exploited the people, the first inhabitants of this place, the aboriginals. Then they left, leaving the landscape in a deplorable state, while taking all the resources with them.

I met the people of these 14 aboriginal nations in Dawson City. I also met them in Whitehorse. These are not rich people. Like all Canadian and Quebec aboriginal communities, they have social and economic problems. This is why they are paying particular attention to the legislation before us today. Those who spoke before me said it: land claims and the sharing of natural resources are means to achieve full self-government, full financial autonomy, which is also very important for these people.

Let me remind the House of the social contract we had at the time. People were told: “We will take your resources, we will sign treaties and set up reserves on which we will exercise complete control and take our fiduciary responsibilities towards you. We will take care of you”. This is what happened with the results we all know about.

People often question this social contract. We often hear ill-informed people say that natives have everything they need, that the government sets aside $5 billion for them in its annual budget. These people say that natives get an average of around $15,000 to $16,000 per capita and wonder what they are complaining about.

We have to realize that this is what the social contract agreed upon at the time is all about. We told them: “We will take over the land, develop the resources and we will see to your health, education and economic development”.

Nowadays, it is important to keep on reminding people of that. What we handed the natives in the past and what we keep giving them are not gifts. It is part of the social contract we negotiated at the time. After seeing what natives have gone through, especially after reading the royal commission report, I am not sure they ended up on the winning side with this social contract.

As I said earlier, through self-government, land claims settlement and a better sharing of the resources, natives will not only regain their pride but also an economy which is crucial to their sense of pride and which is lacking today, since they are confined in a state of dependency vis-à-vis the government.

I want to give you an overview of the progress in negotiations. I highlighted the negotiations carried out so far. Several communities have signed a deal. Some of them did it in 1994, others have been successful since then, but other native communities have yet to sign a self-government agreement or to settle their land claims. I think it is important to give the House an update.

The Little Salmon-Carmacks and Selkirk first nations both signed self-government agreements on July 21. That is not long ago. These people may have been on the sidelines in 1994, but they have now signed their own self government agreement.

This agreement came into force on October 1, 1997. Thus, two more First Nations have managed to settle their self government and land claims problems.

The Tr'on dek Hwech'in First Nation of Dawson City concluded its negotiations on self government on May 24, 1997. The agreement is to be ratified early in 1998; it has not yet been done, but apparently, it should be done soon.

Negotiations on a final settlement on land claims and self government with the White River Nation were concluded just last week. This nation is the latest to be involved in self government and land claims negotiations. It is the last community that got such an agreement.

Negotiations with the Dena council of Ross River are at a preliminary stage. Its territory straddles B.C. and the Yukon. Problems in negotiations have existed for a long time. The council recently tabled a 120% selection of lands. I imagine it is asking that much, but would be content with a little less. Apparently, the federal government expects that this selection will include numerous areas with a high mineral potential. This is in a mineral rich part of southern Yukon. That may be the reason why negotiations are taking a little longer.

Negotiations with the Liard First Nation are currently under way; they deal with the selection of rural lands with a high oil, gas and forestry potential.

This is a case where negotiations on self government and land claims are moving ahead swiftly. But the First Nations are also closely following devolution of federal powers to the Yukon. This is a typical example of the special monitoring by a first nation that is closely related to decisions that will flow from the bill before us.

As for the Carcross-Tagish First Nation, meetings took place last fall. Negotiations are focusing on rural lands as well. Agreements have been signed on a number of claims. The First Nation should soon submit claims regarding specific sites. It was anticipated that negotiations with respect to self-government would be concluded right about now. The final agreement should be signed by March 1998. So we are getting near a final agreement in this case as well.

The Kluane First Nation has submitted land claims. The final agreement, including land claims, is 62% complete, and the agreement with respect to self-government is 85% settled. So, once again, agreements are forthcoming. As I said, work is 62% complete on land claims and 85% complete on self-government. Therefore, we can assume that a final agreement will be reached in the coming months.

Negotiations with the Ta'an Kwach'an Council have, to all intents and purposes, been concluded. They cannot be finalized, however, until the problem of the band's separation from the Kwanlin Dun First Nation is resolved. This reserve has decided that it should be divided into two communities. Therefore, before going any further and concluding agreements with regard to self-government and land claims, we must resolve the problem of how this reserve will be divided.

As for the Kwanlin Dun First Nation, there have been no negotiations since June 1996, because last June the First Nation submitted a proposal that falls outside the frame of reference established under the final umbrella agreement. When the federal government started to negotiate, it set up a legislative and negotiation framework. This particular community wants out. There are some adjustment problems so this could take a little longer.

The aboriginal communities which have not yet signed agreements are the Champagne and Aishihik First Nations, the Nacho Nyak Dun First Nation, the Teslin Tlingit Council and the Gwitch'in Vuntut First Nation. We still have not reached final agreements with these groups. I felt it was important to give a progress report.

As my colleague pointed out, the Bloc Quebecois supports this bill because we are the only sovereignist party in this Chamber and we stand behind any decentralization initiative.

We are rather opposed to centralization. When the government launches a campaign to encroach on a provincial jurisdiction, like education through the millennium fund, or when the Minister of Health tries to infiltrate home care, our party is against it.

Why are we not opposed to this bill? Precisely because it is about decentralization and we believe in decentralization. We believe in devolution to the provinces and territories, to smaller communities, for several reasons.

The main one, in my opinion, is that devolution of these jurisdictions brings government closer to the people, who are then in a better position to exercise control and to adjust their demands to the real needs in the field. If decisions are made in Ottawa for Yukon, for the Gaspé region in Quebec, or for the Matapedia Valley—and I see here my colleague who is supporting me this afternoon—it is more difficult and we are quite opposed to that. We like to see the devolution of powers to the regions and the provinces.

If the government insists on encroaching on some areas of jurisdiction, it should at least respect the provinces by transferring tax points or funds to those not wishing to participate. We believe that this money would be better used if jurisdiction was transferred together with the corresponding tax points or compensation, should a province or region not wish to participate in the program.

The political scene in the Yukon has also changed. The last time I was there, there was no NDP government in power as is now the case.

The NDP is not the same political party as the Bloc Quebecois, and I know its members are not necessarily sovereignists. However, if I look at the political spectrum between the left and the right, I think there is a good balance in the House. Like the NDP, we lean toward the left; our fundamental values include assistance to communities, immigrants and aboriginals.

That is why we consider these issues with special care and sensitivity, unlike the present right wing in this House, where the Reform Party and the Progressive Conservative Party are often much more conservative on such matters and pay much more attention to economic interests than to the interests of aboriginal people.

So the election of a new NDP government in the Yukon is important for aboriginal people, because they will be able to make sure—and they have already received assurances from the Yukon NDP government to that effect—that the government will not take advantage of the fact that self-government and land claims agreements have yet to be reached in some territories, for example by issuing development licenses.

I felt it was an important issue to raise, and it is reassuring not only for us but also for the native communities, since they mentioned it to us, and if they took the trouble to mention it, it must be true, because they might have experienced a little more difficulty with the previous Yukon government.

We expressed some reservations at the second reading stage about the granting of development licences in lands claimed by the First Nations. We were not comfortable with the idea that Yukon might be allowed to legislate on the whole issue of oil and gas development, including, as I mentioned earlier, conservation, development, export and revenues.

We were reluctant because we feared the government might take advantage of the nations that had not yet reached a settlement by issuing development licenses even before negotiations on land claims were concluded.

This issue has been partly settled. Department officials appeared before the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development before second reading, at the report stage. We finally reached an agreement on some issues, and department officials made certain amendments to the bill which satisfied not only the Bloc but also the First Nations. Clause 6 in particular restricts the granting of oil and gas interests on certain types of lands, including those under negotiation. So the bill contains a provision that deals with our concerns.

As for clause 8, it allows the Governor in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Indian Affairs, to take back the administration and control of any oil and gas in public lands so that negotiation or implementation of land claims agreements can continue with the native people.

That is one clause. As a fiduciary, the federal government can tell the Yukon government that, under section 8, it is issuing development licences on lands claimed by the First Nations without their agreement. So, as fiduciaries, we included a provision in the bill to take back this jurisdiction.

We in committee fulfilled our mandate. We asked for adjustments and these adjustments were made. Public officials came and explained the impact of the clauses to our satisfaction. And, when consulted, aboriginal people said they too were satisfied.

In conclusion, as my colleagues mentioned, who supports this bill? The territorial government, naturally, most community groups and organizations in Yukon, as well as the Council for Yukon First Nations, since the 14 nations I mentioned earlier are grouped under a council that supports the bill, as long as the aboriginal and land claims remain valid. I spoke at length about this.

Since the First Nations consider that clauses 6 and 8 satisfy their concerns, we support decentralization, the importance of which I explained earlier. It must be done in a thoughtful and orderly manner in the interest of the whole population, including of course native people, who form the majority in these territories.

Everyone should benefit from the small bill before the House today. Consultations seem to show that will be the case.

I also took the liberty to add another difficulty not only for Hansard , but also for our interpreters. I would like to reassure them. I will say a few words in Gwitch'in. I will give you the translation. Otherwise, I believe the interpreter now on duty would probably have a hard time translating exactly what I will be saying in Gwitch'in.

For now, I will not speak of the meaning. I will speak in Gwitch'in, and after I will tell you what it means. Rest assured, I will say nothing nasty. Everybody will be happy.

I would like to salute the 14 First Nations of Yukon, and I hope they will be the first to benefit from Bill C-8.

The translation was done by Mary Janc Kunnizzi, a specialist of the Gwitch'in language at the Native Language Centre of the Yukon.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Louise Hardy, NDP, Yukon, YT]

Madam Speaker, I am particularly pleased to rise and support Bill C-8, especially this year as it is quite symbolic. It is the 100th anniversary of the creation of Yukon, which was in 1898. Yukon was originally designated as a postal region. After the gold rush we were worthy enough to become a territory.

This legislation does what it ought to do. After a hundred years it is the beginning of putting power back in the hands of the people who live there. It puts power where it belongs, with the people of Yukon.

This act will implement an accord between the Government of Canada and the Yukon Territory relating the administration, control and legislative jurisdiction in respect of oil and gas. It is an important act for the people of Yukon as it will transfer to Yukon additional legislative powers necessary to undertake, through Yukon legislation, all aspects of the management and administration of onshore oil and gas resources.

This legislation will give the Yukon government province like authority to regulate and manage Yukon gas and oil resources in the public's interest. For those who live in provinces that have provincial powers, the term might not have the same affect on you. But coming from Yukon where we are always winding our way through a maze of asking permission to do this or that, this is really significant. It is a huge difference in how we will function as a people and as a legislature.

The devolution of province like powers will not affect any settlement of an aboriginal land claim because the federal government will retain the capacity of regaining the authority transferred to the Yukon government if it is necessary to settle an aboriginal land claim. This is also important because of the 14 first nations, all of them are not settled. Although it is very close, it is not done yet.

Bill C-8 is necessary legislation to transfer authority for oil and gas resources to the Yukon government. It is a significant event because it confirms Canada's commitment, as set out in the northern oil and gas accord signed in May 1993. It must be viewed as a commitment from Canada to the political evolution of Yukon and to the concept of devolution to Yukon and it should be linked to an orderly transition of the transfers of other remaining resources like forestry and mining. We await eagerly to see how this works out so that we can bring down the power over forestry and mining to us.

The composition of the government in power in Yukon is six people in the cabinet, two ministers are First Nations and our Speaker is a First Nation. The composition of our territory is reflected in the government. As well, first nations people have a very strong representation on the council for Yukon first nations. All of the 14 do not belong but most of them do. They are a very integral part of everyday life. Never are our first nations an afterthought. They are represented in all our levels of government.

We expect that the federal government will complete the devolution of all remaining provincial-like powers and programs to the Yukon government. That will make the people of Yukon far more responsible for their own well-being.

Devolution is a transfer process through which the federal government will transfer all the northern affairs programs of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs to the Yukon government. In effect this will end a century of colonialism in Yukon.

As I said, in 1898 a separate territory was created. It had a commissioner who was all powerful. In 1948 the territory suspended its right to income tax collection in exchange for the annual transfer of federal funds. In 1979 the federal government effectively signed over decision making powers to elected territorial representatives. Again, this was a huge change because the commissioner was always appointed.

In 1993 the umbrella final agreement for first nations self-government was signed. On May 28, 1993 the federal government and the Government of the Yukon Territory entered into the Canada-Yukon oil and gas accord. That is what is in front of us to be ratified.

Devolution is an issue of fundamental importance for Yukon people. It will signal the end of a quasi-colonial attitude toward the north and the beginning of a process to gain greater economic self-reliance. It will reinforce participatory democracy because it will give northerners a meaningful democratic say in the development of their own region. It is an essential part of aboriginal self-determination.

With the continuing settlement of Yukon land claims and self-government agreements, Yukoners on the basis of a relationship based on partnerships can look to the future as citizens of Canada and not possessions of the crown.

Devolution is good governance for Yukon, but it will create new employment and economic opportunities, which are desperately needed in the north, and will increase respect for the environment.

Federal and territorial legislation dealing with the transfer of province-like powers to Yukon and the development of a Yukon oil and gas act and regulations is demonstration of a successfully working relationship with first nations and the beginning of a new era of relationships between the people of Yukon and the central government of our confederation.

Devolution opens new opportunities of economic development for Yukoners. After the completion of transfers, Yukon through its own legislation will manage and regulate oil and gas activities including exploration, development, production and conservation, environmental and safety regulations, and the determination and collection of resource revenues.

The Yukon Act is being amended to transfer to northerners new responsibilities and new legislative powers in relation to the exploration of oil and gas; the development, conservative and management of oil and gas, including the rate of primary production; oil and gas pipelines; the raising of money in respect of oil and gas in the territories; and the export of oil and gas.

The amendments will include provisions to allow the federal government to continue to exercise its other responsibilities, including taking back administration and control of oil and gas on any lands in order to settle or implement aboriginal land claims.

It is fully consistent with legislation implementing aboriginal treaty rights under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, including legislation establishing wildlife land management and and environmental regimes.

In addition, the Yukon government has actively involved the Yukon first nations in the process, including the development of the Yukon oil and gas legislation and management process.

The working relationship and close co-operation of the three parties, the federal government, the Yukon government and the Yukon first nations government, have been very successful. The three parties are now committed to completing the remaining land claims and self-government agreements hopefully by the fall of 1998.

Devolution is about partnerships and the assumption of new responsibilities and obligations. The Yukon government and the first nations government established a working partnership on devolution and signed a number of accords. In addition, they have made arrangements concerning their working relationship during the implementation of specific devolution or transfers, particularly an arrangement concerning the transfer of oil and gas responsibilities.

It will give the Yukon government, a local government with locally elected representatives and locally accountable officials, effective control over land and resource management. The territorial government will be in a better position to integrate decisions over resources and will be able to serve more effectively the people of Yukon.

With this transfer of federal resources to the territorial government, financial capital and human resources must at that level guarantee the provision of adequate services and levels of funding. There must be assurances that the resources transferred are enough to provide for the delivery of the mandated responsibilities of the transferred programs.

We expect that the federal government will not withdraw any funding from the programs considered for transfer to the territorial government. It is not in effect a hollow shell handed over to us with all of the responsibility but not the power we need to deal with it.

This negotiated agreement is an historical agreement for the Yukon territory, the Yukon government, first nations of the Yukon and everyone who lives in Yukon. It fully protects the interests of first nations and we are confident it is in compliance with land claims and self-government agreements.

This agreement bodes well for the future of Yukon. In the continuing spirit of co-operation among the federal, territorial and first nations governments, I urge the House to proceed quickly with the bill. It is long awaited and will be much celebrated in this year of our hundredth anniversary.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Madam Speaker, I would like to pose a question to the previous speaker, particularly because she is the member for Yukon.

I listened carefully to her speech and did not hear any reference to a number of issues I raised in my speech. Would the member indicate her response on behalf of Yukoners to the cap on resource revenue? The Yukon is being capped at $3 million. Anything above that, up to 80%, will be going back to the federal government.

Another provision I also raised was that the federal government retains the power to unilaterally take back control of oil and gas under certain circumstances.

I wonder if the member would respond to those two issues.

[Louise Hardy, NDP, Yukon, YT]

Madam Speaker, on it being capped at $3 million, I would rather that had not happened and there were no cap. However that was the way it was negotiated, I think in part because a territory is in a very difficult negotiating position and has to make the best of going from a difficult position to a better position. This agreement was arrived at by the parties involved. I would prefer that there was no cap but there is and we will live with it.

On having the power taken away, again that is part of being a territory. I do not think anyone living in a province would accept that power can be given and power can be taken away. That is how life has been in the territories. As I understand it, under the circumstances of making sure land claims are settled that is important.

All first nations groups should know that they can negotiate without pressure their agreements. After that point I would prefer if the federal government had nothing to do with giving or taking away power. Eventually Yukon will be recognized as a province and will not have to face this kind of withholding.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Madam Speaker, I am surprised at the member's response when she says that eventually the Yukon territory will become a province. I support that idea wholeheartedly.

However, under the terms and conditions of the bill and the direction it is headed, Yukon will forevermore be some kind of second class province. It will not have the jurisdiction or the power of other provinces. I am amazed the member representing Yukon who sits in opposition to the government does not seem to raise that issue or does not seem to be concerned about it.

I would have expected, both being a member for Yukon and being in opposition, that she would have demanded of the government that the bill allow Yukon to become a province with the same kind of status as Alberta, British Columbia, Saskatchewan and all other provinces.

[Louise Hardy, NDP, Yukon, YT]

Madam Speaker, when Yukon becomes a province all of this would be renegotiated. It is for the people of Yukon to decide when they want to take on provincehood.

It cannot be forced on anybody. Perhaps at this point we are not ready or prepared to do that, but we are to build toward that position.