House of Commons Hansard #76 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was program.

Topics

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is the House ready for the question?

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

Small Business Loans ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

I have been requested by the government whip to defer the vote. Accordingly the vote stands deferred.

Canadian Parks Agency ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Parry Sound—Muskoka Ontario

Liberal

Andy Mitchell Liberalfor the Minister of Canadian Heritage

moved that Bill C-29, an act to establish the Canadian Parks Agency and to amend other Acts as a consquence, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in this House today on the occasion of this second reading of Bill C-29, an act to establish the Canadian Parks Agency and to amend other Acts as a consequence.

I can certainly say on behalf of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and on behalf of myself and all Canadians that we take great pride in our national parks system, in our national historic sites and those other special places that we protect and for which we provide stewardship.

The proposal of Bill C-29, the development of the Canadian parks agency, is indeed a type of new beginning. We have had as part of the Department of Canadian Heritage, as part of the Department of Environment before that and as part of the Department of Indian Affairs before that, Parks Canada. Over those years the men and women who have worked in that department have done an excellent job in protecting our special places in ensuring that our special places are there for the benefit of Canadians.

There is a need to bring certainty and permanency to that organization so we can move into the future reflecting the realities of the 1990s and making sure that we are prepared to deal with the challenges of the 21st century. That is what developing and producing a Canadian parks agency is all about.

In my comments today it is my intent to talk about why we are developing an agency and what we have done so far in terms of consulting and talking to Canadians about how we should approach this issue. I am going to talk about some of the components of the legislation which is before the House today.

My connection to parks and our other special places has certainly preceded my time as Secretary of State for Parks and the time before I became a member of this House.

In my riding of Parry Sound—Muskoka we are pleased to host the smallest geographic national park in the system, Georgian Bay Island National Park which is in the southern end of my riding. I and all of my constituents take great pride in that facility and what the men and women who run that facility have accomplished and the thousands of visitors who come to that area.

In my own hometown of Gravenhurst we have the birthplace of Dr. Norman Bethune as a national historic site where we recognize the achievements of one our most famous Canadians. Also as part of my riding and making up part of the southern boundary is the Trent-Severn Waterway one of the historic waterways which is administered by Parks Canada.

Beyond this hometown experience I have been able to build on my appreciation of what Parks Canada has done in the past. I have had an opportunity to talk to Canadians from coast to coast to coast this past year. We consulted with large numbers of stakeholders and employees about the proposed Canadian parks agency. In doing so, I have come to appreciate even more the importance of these special places, the importance of how Canadians view our national parks, how they view our historic sites and all of the other special places.

As I deal with the ongoing files that are part of the administration of Parks Canada, I see on a day to day basis why it is that Canadians place a high value on our national parks and historic sites. I have come to learn and to understand why our national parks are the third most recognized symbol of Canadians. It is because of the importance and the special place they have in our nation and the special place in which Canadians hold them in their hearts.

This agency is going to allow us to produce an organization that will be able to achieve our two primary mandates. The first is to ensure that Canadians have an opportunity to enjoy our national parks and other special places today, so that they can learn about our history, so they can learn about our heritage and experience the very specialness that is uniquely Canadian. That is indeed our mandate and this agency will allow us to carry it out.

It will also allow us to carry out our second fundamental mandate which is to ensure that Canadians of future generations, Canadians of the 21st century and beyond will be able to enjoy those special sites as well. It is an obligation we take seriously as a government and which I believe Canadians take seriously as a nation to ensure that we can pass on those assets in an unimpaired way to future generations.

With this legislation we are going to be developing an organization that will be designed in a way that will allow us to deal with the economic realities of the 1990s. It will allow us to organize ourselves efficiently so that we can meet the challenges and we can do our job, do it effectively and do it with less financial resources. We are going to create with this agency an establishment that will provide our employees with the tools they need to be more efficient and more creative in doing their jobs.

In the 1996 budget, the Government of Canada announced its intention to create the Canadian Parks Agency. Two rounds of consultations ensued in the months that followed, at the request of the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

Indeed we undertook that consultation with the belief that we had to include a wide range of Canadians. We ensured that the various stakeholders who have an interest in our national parks and those individuals who work within our national parks and other special places had an opportunity to talk to us and provide us with some of the important ideas and components on how we should proceed in creating this agency.

During the last two years there have been two rounds of consultations. Over 150 stakeholders have provided testimony. In addition over 300 of our staff have had an opportunity to provide direct input to us on what they believe should be part of this agency.

As I mentioned earlier we took the opportunity to go across Canada. We took the opportunity to hear Canadians in Atlantic Canada, Canadians on the west coast, Canadians in the Arctic and Canadians in central Canada so that we could have a full understanding of what Canadians in general want to see in this agency.

I want to take this opportunity on behalf of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and myself to thank all of those employees and stakeholders who took the time and the opportunity to provide their valuable input. We have listened to what they have had to say. Many of their comments and suggestions have found their way into the legislation before the House today.

What did we hear? We heard a number of very important messages and a number of very important principles which Canadians believe should be in the legislation.

None has been more important than the belief shared by Canadians from coast to coast that the parks portfolio needs to be under public stewardship. Our special places, our parks and national historic sites, are a public trust and public stewardship needs to be exercised in a public way.

I state clearly to the House and to all Canadians who are watching or will be reading this debate that the creation of the Canadian parks agency is the creation of a public agency that is fully accountable to the House and to government.

During our consultations we heard that the public and our employees wanted us to ensure we had a mandate that included firm commitments to ecological and commemorative integrity and that we reinforced the programs we undertake in terms of interpretation and education.

They told us that not only was it important to maintain these special places. It was also important for Canadians to learn about them and understand the history. Whether or not Canadians have the opportunity to travel to these locations they can collectively take pride and joy in the reality of these special places.

As we travelled across the country we heard that message over and over again. Let us ensure that Canadians generally have an opportunity to learn about and to experience our national parks and other special places.

They also told us that they wanted to be engaged on an ongoing basis. They did not want the consultation to be a one time opportunity. They generally felt very good that there was a forum in which they could provide the type of input they thought was important in terms of the management of our national parks. In that respect they suggested there should be some sort of permanent structure in place to allow for that input to be ongoing.

In the bill to set up the Canadian park agency we see a call for biennial forums so individuals or groups of Canadians have an opportunity to evaluate the ability of the agency, to measure our performance in fulfilling our mandate and to provide input in terms of whether we have been able to fulfil it in the way they think best.

This is almost unique among government initiatives. We will proactively and on a mandated basis allow Canadians to evaluate the work we will be doing as the Canadian parks agency. It is mandated in our legislation. It is not subject to regulatory change. That is an important component of the bill. It was suggested during our consultations. I am pleased we will be able to move forward with it.

This will be a public organization in terms of its transparency and accountability. The legislation will ensure that there cannot be and will not be any degradation of the roles of parliament, the minister or the government in exercising their stewardship of our special places. Parks and our other special places like historic sites and historic waterways belong to all Canadians and will be managed on behalf of all Canadians by Canadians.

With the creation of the Canadian parks agency, we wish to attain four key objectives.

Those four objectives are very important. I will take a moment to summarize them. The Canadian parks agency will be a separate ongoing service organization which, under the direction of parliament and the government, will provide continuity in managing Canada's special places. I emphasize the concept of continuity. One of the challenges those who have spent their careers in parks have had to face is that it has gone from ministry to ministry, from department to department.

With the creation of this service agency we will bring some certainty and some continuity to ensure we will be able to manage our national historic sites and our national parks in a sound ongoing way. I believe this is a very important objective. It will be a very important accomplishment of the legislation when it passes the House.

Also we have as an objective the creation of an organization committed to some very important goals we have established as a government to complete Canada's system of national parks. This is something we have committed ourselves to work toward as we move toward the 21st century. The organization would be committed to expanding the system of national historic sites and to creating and maintaining marine conservation areas.

This is a unique concept, one that we are near the lead in the world. With the creation of marine conservation areas we will translate ecological standards and re-create the work we have done in protecting our terrestrial areas to our marine areas. I look forward later in this session of parliament to tabling legislation which will allow this agency to proceed with that very important task.

The legislation will also create an organization that has the necessary financial and organizational flexibility which empowers our employees to fulfil their mandate in a creative and efficient manner.

As I travelled from coast to coast consulting with our employees I learned how fortunate we are as Canadians to have men and women who have dedicated themselves to careers in Parks Canada. They have dedicated themselves to protecting our special places. They have dedicated themselves to ensuring that Canadians have an opportunity to enjoy our special places and to see what is truly unique about the country.

The legislation will establish an agency as a separate employer or a structure that will allow us to meet the very specific organizational and environmental challenges that are unique to Parks Canada.

We will provide a human resource regime that makes sense for Parks Canada, a human resource regime that understands Parks Canada operates from coast to coast to coast seven days a week, 24 hours a day, in all kinds of geographic and climatic conditions.

We will ensure through the creation of the Canadian parks agency that we have a human resource system which will be able to meet those challenges. We are working at creating that system, not in isolation but in partnership with our employees as we have gone across the country on consultations, in partnership with the unions that represent our employees, and in partnership with the Canadian stakeholders who believe in and about the Canadian parks agency.

We are working on this group to create a human resource regime. I am pleased the partners have come together over the last few months and are working diligently in creating the type of HR regime that works not only for the agency but for employees within the agency.

Now, if I may, I will describe the new agency.

Let me explain for a moment some of the important changes the agency will bring to the operation of our portfolio.

We will be able to flatten the organization. We will go a system where we have a field superintendent who is responsible to the head of the agency, who in turn will be responsible to the minister.

This will allow us to see decisions made far more quickly, more efficiently. Decisions will be made, taking into account local conditions and local challenges. We will provide to our field superintendents increased levels of responsibility so decisions can be taken in a way that reflects the needs of local areas.

The Canadian parks agency will have a number of financial authorities not traditionally associated with government departments. These authorities will allow us to operate in a business-like manner but remembering we are not a business.

We need to operate efficiently but remember that we do things as part of the Canadian parks agency that are not done solely for profit. When we establish a national park in the far north of Canada, we do so because Canadians believe it is important to protect these special places. It is not because we believe we can turn a profit. That is not what we are all about. However, with this agency we have created a number of financial authorities which will allow us to be more efficient in carrying out our tasks.

We will be able to maintain the revenue generated by Parks Canada within the portfolio of the Canadian parks agency. This will allow us additional financial resources that can be used in the creation and expansion of our national parks system and our system of national historic sites.

With the new authorities being granted to this agency we will be able to establish a non-lapsing capital account which will allow us to keep the proceeds from gifts and endowments, or the sale of excess assets such as vehicles or buildings, and use them for investment into new Canadian parks.

This is important. In the past the funds would simply have gone back into the consolidated revenue fund. Under this agency the revenue will be there and available for investments into important priorities which Canadians place on the shoulders of the Canadian parks agency.

The Canadian parks agency will be working on what we call a two year rolling budget. It will be able to carry forward its budget from one year to the next. No more will we have the scenario, which many of us have seen all too often as we approach the end of the fiscal year, where expenditure decisions are being made not on sound business practice but on the calendar. We will put a system in place by going to a two year rolling budget that will allow our managers in the field to make the best possible decisions in utilizing their budgets.

Something that will be a special authority to the agency and is particularly important, given our mandate in the Canadian parks agency, is the ability to advance funds from appropriations up to a certain limit from future years. If an opportunity presents itself in this fiscal year, for instance to purchase property in terms of establishing a national park, we can do it this year because it makes economic sense, whereas in the next fiscal year it may not. This will give the management team the ability to make decisions based on sound business practices. I am pleased these financial authorities will be granted to the new Canadian parks agency.

As all Canadians want to know—and it is part of our public stewardship—we will continue the use of appropriations as the primary source of funding for the national parks system. Roughly today the split is about 75:25 and that is where we intend to keep it in the foreseeable future.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the specific aspects of the new agency will be the establishment of a separate human resource regime which will allow us to create a structure that reflects the realities we face in the Canadian parks agency, the number of hours our employees work and the types of conditions under which they work, to make sure we have an HR regime that reflects their concerns and their needs. That is one of the things we are doing with this agency.

We are also going to create with the agency an organization that will have a number of simplified processes that will allow decisions to happen more quickly and in a more business-like way. As I mentioned, we will be able to increase the authorities that we are providing to our local field superintendents. We are going to simplify the process by which decisions can take place at the local level. This is important and Canadians will see a direct benefit from this.

One of the things we heard very clearly when we did our national consultation was that Canadians wanted to ensure that this new agency would have ministerial and parliamentary accountability. One of the specific components of this legislation is to ensure that accountability is there. Canadians have said they want to make sure they as Canadians have an impact on the stewardship of our special places. The accountability processes that this legislation brings forth will certainly allow that to happen.

As I believe this position of accountability is a very critical point, I am going to take a moment to review a couple of the processes this legislation brings forth to ensure accountability. First, in terms of the minister responsible, the Minister of Canadian Heritage, that cabinet position will continue to have responsibility for developing and seeking approval from cabinet for broad policy issues. It will remain accountable to the public and remain within government.

In addition, the minister will approve the guiding principles and policies under which the new Canadian parks agency will operate.

Each one of our national parks today and, under this legislation, each one of our national historic sites will require the development of a five year management plan which will be approved by the minister and tabled in this House in order to allow parliamentarians to be part of that review.

The minister will be recommending the corporate plan to Treasury Board and approving an annual report which will detail how we managed to fulfil our objectives that we established in the previous year. The minister will be approving the state of the parks report which will become a much broader report to include the ecological integrity of all the special places that we manage.

The minister will be responsible for fixing and establishing fees that will be charged at our national parks.

In terms of talking about the creation of a new HR regime, every five years the minister will be tabling a summary report on how the human resources regime supports the values established within government to management our human resources within the agency.

Beyond just ministerial accountability, this legislation builds in accountability that Parliament itself will have an opportunity and an obligation to exercise. As is the case now, we as parliamentarians approve the establishment of new national parks. We as parliamentarians do now and will continue to approve the annual appropriations which the Canadian parks agency will be receiving.

The summary of the corporate plan will be tabled by the minister in this House for the review of parliamentarians.

In terms of the corporate plan, the annual review, which will be undertaken by the minister, will not only contain our objectives but will also analyse and determine whether we are achieving those objectives.

I mentioned there will be a biennial report which deals with the ecological integrity of our special places. Not only will the minister receive and review that report but it will come to Parliament.

In conclusion, 113 year ago our predecessors made the decision to protect and preserve the newly opened wilderness around Banff. Today we are the beneficiaries of that vision and foresight. The establishment of the Canadian parks agency reflects our effort and will provide us the tools to fulfil that vision into the future.

It is important to us in the House and indeed to all Canadians that 113 years from now Canadians will look back and know and appreciate that the decisions the House will take today and in the weeks to come in terms of this legislation will lead to the protection and the creation of the special places that will be the enjoyment of Canadians in the 22nd century.

Canadian Parks Agency ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, that was a very interesting speech. The pairing off of the parks from Heritage Canada and the insertion of the junior ministry of parks I believe has been a very positive step in the management of parks in Canada.

I have had a good working relationship with this minister and I would hope that, all partisan politics aside, it might continue.

The purpose of the Canadian parks agency act is to administer and protect our national parks, national historic sites and other heritage areas. This is a very important part of Canada. Indeed, as Reformers representing the grassroots, ordinary Canadians, more and more people across Canada are coming to see and understand and value the importance of parks and the preservation of parks.

We may have different visions and from time to time we find that some of the visions of this minister, indeed of this government, are rather restrictive and a touch myopic, but nonetheless we have the ability to dialogue. I think we have established a working relationship here that the Liberals clearly understand, that the Reform Party is very keenly interested in maintaining our natural ecosystems, in maintaining the ability of Canadians to be able to know, see and understand the importance of parks in their lives.

At present the responsibility for parks, as I have mentioned, falls under the Department of Canadian Heritage. Although this agency will still report back to this minister and the Minister of Canadian Heritage, maybe we have to give even more creative thought as to how we can even further depoliticize the whole issue of parks.

The new agency will remain accountable through the minister to Parliament. One of the concerns we had when we first saw the title of this act was that it was a step further removed in terms of being answerable to the people who are elected on behalf of the citizens of Canada to administer parks, but indeed it is not.

One of the major reasons we recognize that parks are unique in terms of their administration is that there are many things that we can do to create and there are many things that we can dismantle or take apart and then rebuild from a legislative perspective. When it comes to parks what we have to all clearly understand is that we are talking about living ecosystems. We are talking about our very environment. We are talking about being able to do absolute total damage that is irreparable.

We all recognize and acknowledge that. Again I want to make the commitment on behalf of the Reform Party that any actions taken with respect to parks, any management of parks, are taken from our perspective with that in mind.

We also like the idea that the agency will be more efficient since it will be able to raise and keep its own revenues, to bargain directly with its employees, to permit third party operators to administer certain facilities and to allow the chief executive officer of the parks agency to set terms and conditions of employment.

One of the difficulties there has been, because of the very unique nature of parks in Canada, is to try to fit into a template that simply does not fit. Parks are of an unique shape. Parks do not fit into the box that most of the government functions can easily fit into.

The agency will have access to a new $10 million parks historic sites account. Any funds drawn from this account will be repayable to the crown with interest. Even this in itself is somewhat innovative and will permit a flexibility within the parks agency that is not clearly available with the existing legislation.

In relation to Reform Party policy, No. 5 in our statement of principles is that Canada's identify and vision for the future should be rooted in and inspired by a fresh appreciation of our land and the supreme importance to our well-being of exploring, developing, renewing and conserving our natural resources and physical environment. We support the concept of environmentally sensitive zoning. Therefore this park agency fits very well into the established policy of the Reform policy as it presently exists.

We are committed as a party to having our national parks and heritage sites administered in an accountable, efficient and cost effective manner. We support the agency's objective of cost recovery while at the same time ensuring that fees at Canada's national parks and heritage sites do not become prohibitively expensive.

The minister will know that I have had some criticism in the past. I continue with the criticism over the way in which the entrance fees are administered in our parks. It is a hodgepodge. It is an unenforceable hodgepodge. It is one which is very important.

If we were to take a very rough figure of $350 million as being the parks gross budget, at this point approximately $50 million of that is accounted for in terms of fees, rents and leases in external money coming into the park. The problem is that 40% of that, $20 million, comes from park entry fees that cannot be administered effectively. In fact, it is in a position of causing people to really cheat and creates an environment where there is a sufficient advantage for people to cheat on these fees. We are losing that revenue side. It is this kind of thing that is currently going on within the parks system that will not be resolved with the establishment of the parks agency.

I believe that the structure of the parks agency will lead to an environment where questions like this can be dealt with in a more business-like manner. It is the same thing as the enterprise units that were established on an experimental basis. These were the hot pools in the four mountain parks. It was a first step in the direction of the parks agency that the revenue coming from the hot pools in Banff, Radium and Jasper would be able to go into its own account and be accounted for. Unlike the current system within the rest of the federal government where funds that come in go into consolidated revenue, these funds would be earmarked. This enterprise unit would be able to administer the pools in a business-like way. There has been some success with that as a first step.

The Reform Party has taken a look at a number of these things and we see some real glimmers of hope that there is going to be a much more rational approach in the area of financing the parks.

Canadians benefit through a continued service at the parks and sites. The flexibilities and authorities provided in the legislation are designed to support the agency in delivering services within substantially reduced budgets.

To comment parenthetically for a second, it may be known that I have the good fortune of having four parks in my constituency, Mount Revelstoke, Glacier, Yoho and Kootenay National Park. Of course, Kootenay is adjacent to Banff and Jasper parks and Waterton in the southwest corner of the province of Alberta. I am actually surrounded by a tremendous number of parks.

I am indeed fortunate to live where I do. I also live near the people who work at these parks and they have spoken to me. They have my ear. They have some concerns with respect to how the parks agency is going to relate to them as the workers in the parks. I look forward in committee to having input from people representing all the layers involved in the delivery of services in the parks.

It is the Reform Party position that first there is the necessity through services like the ranger service to ensure that the physical management, administration and enforcement within the parks are maintained at a very high level. That is very essential to ensure the integrity of the parks.

Second, with respect to the delivery of the other services, particularly for parks visitors, it is the party's position that it is done in a cost effective way. It must be done in such a way that Canadians will always be able to access the appropriate places in the parks where they should be going so they can enjoy their out of door experiences.

With this in mind while speaking parenthetically, one of the major disappointments to me as a member of Parliament occurred when Parks Canada in its present life decided it would start contracting out. It struck me that what we should have been doing at that point was rather than going to contracting out without having established the structure of the parks agency, that we had an effort to do something without having any idea of what the structure was going to look like. That struck me as being a very shallow way for us to be going ahead and doing something which perhaps was politically popular at the time.

Of the 3,500 parks employees there are many people, whether we are talking about top management or about hourly workers, who legitimately have been very concerned about their livelihoods. They are concerned about whether they are going to have a job, if they are going to be able to buy running shoes for their kids next month.

This has been very unfair. I was very happy to see Parks Canada back off a very flawed process. With that in mind I close my parenthetic remarks.

The people who are going to be affected by the parks agency I am sure with the co-operation of the minister will have access to the committee to speak to the various provisions of the legislation. Whether they are in unions or are non-unionized hourly workers or whether they are in management, they must be able to have access.

We should also bear in mind some of the unfortunate things that have happened. For example at the Department of National Defence people have come forward to make submissions and have been chastized for it. I am sure that would never ever happen with Parks Canada.

Through the parks agency Canadians will benefit by the creation of new parks and sites. We have to be very careful. We do not have a limitless chequebook. We have to recognize that the money that will be expended on parks in the future is coming from the taxpayers' chequebooks. We have to be very prudent in the way we do that. On the other side of the coin, we also have to recognize there are some identifiable areas in Canada that we have to look at and which we have to preserve for the benefit of our children and our grandchildren.

Under the parks agency there is the potential to have enhanced accountability to Canadians. The legislation, while encompassing the existing activities associated with national parks, national historic sites and related protected heritage sites, reinforces roles which engender pride and give expression to our values and identity as Canadians.

The minister will retain full power of direction over agency activities. The legislation provides for new or improved accountability mechanisms to Parliament. These are the parts that we really like: a summary of the corporate plan and annual report; a biennial state of Canadian protected heritage areas report; the tabling of management plans for national parks and national historic sites in Parliament; and a unique mechanism which requires that the agency hold a biennial forum which will permit Canadians from all walks of life to share their views on the agency's program and to participate more fully in the management direction for these treasured national places.

These parks do not belong to the minister. They do not belong to members of Parliament. These parks belong to the people of Canada, and who better to have a say in the way in which they are managed and the way in which they are preserved and enhanced for the future of Canadians. In that respect we find that part of the parks agency legislation to be the most beneficial.

Working toward the completion of the national parks system and to enhance the systems of national historic sites and marine conservation areas is probably the biggest single challenge we have. This is most likely the area where we would end up with whatever disagreement we would have with the Liberals. I would not see it as being a political difference of opinion although the Liberals have a well-deserved reputation of intervening in many situations where there does not need to be government intervention.

We see being able to co-operate with the Liberal government, with any government. For example, three and a half years from now when the Reform forms the government, we would look forward to the participation of the Liberals with us along with whoever else gets the remnants of the seats in Canada. We would hope they would co-operate with us in the continued management of the parks.

There has been a challenge of maintaining the services and achieving long term goals. With that in mind again we are enthusiastic supporters of the way in which the accountability has been structured within this bill. I have stated that the agency will report directly to the Minister of Canadian Heritage who will in turn be accountable for its activities before Parliament. Current mechanisms to ensure responsible public dialogue and accountability will be enhanced.

There will be a summary of the corporate plan of the agency, a five year plan, and management plans for the national parks and national historic sites, and an annual report on the agency's operations. There will be a summary of the prepared report at least every five years on how the human resource regime supports the values and principles established by the government management of human resources. There will also be a biennial report on the state of Canadian protected areas.

We find the way in which the funds are going to be administered also makes a lot more sense, that of accountability, of the financing being on a two year operational rolling budget providing an annual carryover of funds.

We have had an exceptionally light snow year in the mountain parks, not that these are the only parks in Canada. Heaven only knows they go from Newfoundland to the Arctic and back—

Canadian Parks Agency ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

An hon. member

And Peterborough.

Canadian Parks Agency ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay—Columbia, BC

—and Peterborough.

In the mountain parks where there is normally a tremendous requirement for snow clearing and road maintenance, although this year has not been a breeze, it has been the next thing to it. The cost has been very low. This was really quite fortunate because Parks Canada initiated a system whereby it ended up pulling the maintenance facilities for the road clearing equipment from where it should be and I believe should continue to be, back to Lake Louise.

I really hesitate to think what would have happened if we had had a normal snow year or a heavy snow year. However, the gods of snow shone favourably on this Liberal government in spite of its rather bone headed way of doing this road clearing reorganization.

My point is that the two year rolling budget is going to be beneficial exactly in that situation. When there is a low cost year, why would we turn around and paint signs and bridges that do not need painting? We would do it under the existing regime because the money had been left over from the snow clearing. But then next year, when we did not have El Niño and we ended up with a dump of snow in the parks, we would be short on budget.

As a matter of fact a couple of years ago it was so short on budget because of a heavy snowfall in Mount Revelstoke Glacier National Park. On the Trans-Canada Highway over the Rogers Pass there was a series of accidents as a result of not having sufficient salt or gravel to take care of the Trans-Canada Highway.

This is an absolutely classic example of why the parks agency is going to be such an ideal fit in its present form. We are going to look at it. We are not giving it the green light completely but at least it is a faint green light. There are some good ideas which recognize that parks in Canada are not like a theatre operation which comes under the heritage minister and they are not like a television network. Those are things that can be built up or cut down. However, we cannot build up and cut down on what we are doing with respect to natural ecosystems in parks.

In conclusion, a major concern that we have in this process and one I am sure we are going to have good co-operation on from the minister is to ensure that all interested parties, all people who will be impacted by the parks, will have an opportunity to have a say in committee.

Again I am going to remark parenthetically. There is the situation when the marine park in Quebec was set up recently. I was the parks critic and I said I was looking forward to people being able to make representations at committee. That did not happen. We basically got involved in a clause by clause study. For the people reading Hansard or the viewers who might not understand, we went over the legislation clause by clause, shall this clause pass, shall that clause pass and then boom, it was back in the House. I was very disappointed with that process.

I just want to say very clearly to the minister that will not happen on this bill. We will give everybody who was involved particularly on the human resource side an opportunity to have a kick at the can. We want them to help us understand, perhaps not only from a legal point of view but also in their judgment as they read the words, what this will mean to them in terms of everything from collective bargaining to the way in which their hours will be set, the whole nine yards.

The Reform Party will be supporting this legislation at second reading to go to committee for this process. As I said to a colleague just before I rose to speak, when I am the heritage minister I will probably do this legislation this way.

Canadian Parks Agency ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

When the House resumes consideration of this bill, the hon. member will have 16 minutes and 47 seconds remaining in his remarks.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

March 18th, 1998 / 5:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It being 5:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the taking of several deferred divisions, pursuant to an order adopted earlier today.

The first recorded division is on ways and means Motion No. 10.

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Division No. 110Government Orders

6 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the motion carried.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Division No. 110Government Orders

6 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Kilger Liberal Stormont—Dundas, ON

Mr. Speaker, I believe that you would find consent to apply the results of the vote just taken to the ways and means Motion No. 11.

Division No. 110Government Orders

6 p.m.

The Speaker

Is there agreement to proceed in this fashion?

Division No. 110Government Orders

6 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-21, an act to amend the Small Business Loans Act, be read the third time and passed.