Madam Speaker, I was saying that Bill C-27 showed a lack of vision and management philosophy. I indicated my sources with respect to the public.
The Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans has pointed out that the main problem is that the federal government is to blame for poor management. In its report, the committee also indicated a way of restoring this credibility, which consists in reviewing management methods and ways of establishing total allowable catches.
I would like to cite article 5 of the United Nations Fishing Agreement or UNFA. This document was written in general terms.
I also want to look at the purpose of Bill C-27. What is its real purpose? We do not have to pass a bill to allow a participating country, such as Canada, to ratify the agreement. It is therefore false to say that the bill is being introduced in order to implement the international agreement.
We will look at the specific purpose of the bill. Does it help us provide better protection for our straddling stocks? Bill C-29 already does that. Does it sort out British Columbia's problem, as the Reform member said. No.
The first conclusion I come to today is that Bill C-27 serves primarily to introduce a red herring. All the while the government is urging the House, when there is a quorum, to debate the fishery, it is trying to give the illusion that it is doing something about the fishery problem. The real problem sits across the way and the real impact can be seen in the streets of Newfoundland and it will soon be seen in the streets of New Brunswick and the Gaspé.
There are a number of problems facing the few remaining small fishing operations—it is too bad I did not think to bring the list with me—the plan for managing the crab fishery in zone 12 for example, which the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans has yet to resolve. This concerns Quebec, particularly the Gaspé Peninsula, and New Brunswick.
Instead of having us believe that Bill C-27 is incredibly important, why does the minister not try to resolve the crab management problem? That is something he could do. It would have a direct, immediate impact. This would put bread and butter on the table for many families.
Life in the regions follows the seasons. When the ice starts to melt, it is time to go fishing. Wait too long and the water gets too warm; there will be strawberries in the fields but crab shells will be soft and their flesh white. So, what is the minister waiting for?
It is fair to say that there is no crab fishery plan. I think there are temporary ones for the shrimp fishery. We are hearing complaints from crab fishers in the Sept-Îles area as well. What is the minister waiting for to look into it? These are issues that need to be resolved and which would have an impact in the short term.
Let us get back to Bill C-27 now that I have let off some steam. As far as I could see in perusing it, Bill C-27 sets out some general management principles. Canada has not yet developed its own policy, as I said earlier.
I would like to quote a section—section 5 and its five paragraphs—stating general principles for managing fisheries.
In article 5(a) one of the wishes contained in the United Nations Fisheries Agreement is to promote optimum utilization. What is the department's or the minister's opinion on this? Most of all, what is the industry's opinion? Nobody has asked, and I believe they are entitled to have the first say.
In article 5(f), still in that international agreement which Canada would like us to sign with Bill C-27, reference is made to fishing gear. I will spare you all the details, but it ends with mention of “environmentally safe and cost-effective fishing gear and techniques”.
What is the meaning of this? Did anyone ask the industry what this represents? What are they thinking about, when we see Canada preparing to commit to such a thing? This can be interesting.
It is true that, if the government wants MPs to pass a bill to help it sign an international agreement, it needs to go first to the grass roots. It could sign it directly, I tell you. If it can, let it not bother us with it.
Still under “general principles”, I have another little question. It will be a good exercise at the same time. We will see whether the Minister of Fisheries himself has read the famous agreement he wants so badly for us to adopt.
Article 5(i) states “take into account the interests of artisanal and subsistence fishers”. Here is another good question. Does this mean that Canada is prepared to allow artisanal fishing when the fishery starts up again? So, we no longer have offshore or midshore fishers. What is Canada's position on this issue? What is the industry's attitude? What will fishers think? What will the processors who will receive the resource think? There is an impact, but we do not talk about it.
We are told “Pass this bill and all our problems will be solved. That is how we managed to stop that Spanish boat, the Estai ”. This has already been done with Bill C-29. The minister does not know what he wants.
These questions will have to be answered. And I only read three paragraphs of clause 5. Already, if the minister was willing to have a debate, we could get some idea as to whether Canada hopes to have an industry that will more or less operate in this or that fashion. But we do not know that and the government is introducing legislation to protect our stocks. It is tabling a bill that will confirm a management philosophy, but we still do not know what it thinks. We still do not know what this implies.
The main problem is that we need to answer these questions to deal with the fate of those who are concerned about TAGS.
The Minister of Human Resources Development seems like a nice guy. I am taking this opportunity, since he is sitting across from me. While he may try to show a great deal of compassion in the House when we put questions to him during oral question period, his job as human resources minister is to help people retrain, after they have been declared surplus.
But who will declare them surplus in the fishing industry, if not the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans? I hope the latter will assume his responsibilities and not leave them to the parliamentary janitor, even though I have a lot of respect for him. Someone must be in charge. Someone must get the debate going on this issue, but it is not being done right now.
I am very concerned by what the government opposite is doing. I do not know who will sit on the committee to be set up by the Minister of Human Resources Development. First, the members of this committee must have some idea of what our industry will look like, before determining what must be declared surplus.
Something else is not included. The government is trying to regulate the fate of the industry and protect our stocks, but under the Canadian Constitution, the federal government is responsible for the catch. Processing, once the fish is landed, is a provincial matter. Everything is related.
The image is distressing: a live fish is federal and a dead fish is provincial. It is not because I come from Quebec that I underscore this point and say there are problems. If I am the first to say so, it does not matter because others will say the same thing.
There is an impact on the provinces. The Minister of Human Resources Development knows full well the number of workers involved on land. He knows a lot of people are involved. In the Gaspé we have always said that one fisher provides work for five people on land. Everything is connected.
I want to say, in relation to article 5, that Canada has not had discussions with the fishing community—those who catch and process—on the general principles of management in the UN fisheries agreement. I wonder what provincial ministers are waiting for before initiating discussions with them?
Before Christmas, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, during an opposition day debate on a Progressive Conservative motion dealing with an eventual fishing policy, recognized that one reason the Atlantic groundfish strategy did not work was that the provinces may not have been sufficiently involved. To my way of thinking, that does not mean they were not involved enough financially, but that they were not involved enough in resolving the problem.
This is the sort of debate we need. There is a little time yet before the House adjourns and before the ministers take their holidays, which are perhaps justified. But I do not want them to leave on holiday without providing some security for the public, which will be faced with the end of the Atlantic groundfish strategy in August 1998. The people of Newfoundland and the Gaspé have got the message and that is why they are in the streets today. It is their only recourse. They say they have no choice.
I see time is passing, please tell me at the end of the day how much time I will have tomorrow morning, because I have a lot more to say.
That is the start and that is what needs to be done. Tomorrow morning I will be back and will carry on. I will suggest other approaches, but the message the public is waiting to hear is that we at least agree on what the problem is and that, once it admits there is a problem, the government agrees on a timetable for trying to do something about it.
The public also expects the government to be transparent in its approach and share its criteria, to be sure that it has not forgotten anything. Nobody will be hurt because there are not yet any names attached, but we can agree on wording and objectives. That will give us enough to go ahead with. Later on, after we have looked at it together, figures can be added and responsibilities assigned, if that is what we are asked to do.
I am all for decentralization to the provinces. I would like those who are not to adopt the approach I have just outlined, which is to define the problem and seek a solution, and not to rule out any solution a priori, but to consider them all.
Bill C-27 does not address the problem, and that is what I would like to continue to do. It is also a way of improving Bill C-27, because management philosophy comes up in this agreement. If the members opposite have not seen it, it is time they went back and read the United Nations Fishing Agreement and did their homework. Then we can talk.