Debates of May 1st, 1998

Tokamak Project

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, Canada is very fortunate to have a very broad mix of energy sources and it is important that we use all of those sources prudently and wisely.

Some of those sources are still in the realm of scientific development. The one the hon. gentleman refers to is one of those. There is certainly interest in that subject matter but it is one of a very long term nature that does not seem to have a short term payback in terms of dealing with issues like climate change, say in the next five to ten years.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how can the minister reconcile the nice principles that he is referring to now and that he referred to a few weeks ago with his government's unjustifiable decision to cut its modest annual contribution of $7.2 million to the Tokamak project, in Varennes?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, the scientific activity the hon. gentleman refers to is scientific activity that is perfectly legitimate and valid but has a return period that is some 20, 30 or 40 years into the future.

In terms of dealing with the climate change issues we must deal with in the next 5 to 10 years, obviously the timing horizon of 30 or 40 years into the future is not particularly helpful. That is not, though, to undermine or to demean the importance of fusion research and it is a subject matter that may well—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Fraser Valley.

Hepatitis C

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, today the provinces are getting together and are trying to develop some sort of compensation package, or at least they are realizing that right now in this country there are two two tiers of victims, pre-1986 and post-1986. They realize there is something wrong with that kind of package.

They are trying in their own way to develop another package that could address the needs of all those victims.

Will the Prime Minister do the right thing today and meet with those provincial counterparts, convene a meeting to see if there is some way we can look after the needs of all hepatitis C victims?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, we have an agreement with the provinces and I have heard no province say it is abandoning that agreement.

The agreement calls on both levels of government to contribute a sum of money to be offered to people who were harmed when it could have been prevented.

Let us remember the basis of this. Money or damages or cash payments are being offered to people who were harmed when it could have been prevented. That is what is at issue here. For those who were infected before when it could not have been prevented, we are taking a different approach.

The Canadian people support that and I invite the member and his colleagues to join with us in our ambitious agenda to strengthen medicare to provide—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Fraser Valley.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the discredited health minister knows there were tests available prior to 1986. He knows Horace Krever has documented that in his study on the issue.

Why does the Prime Minister not convene a national meeting of premiers or health ministers and himself, show some leadership, invite Horace Krever to talk about who is liable and when the tests were available, and then develop a compensation package for all hepatitis C victims? Do the steps, one, two, three and it will work.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Justice Krever wrote four volumes of the report. If the member will look at them he will see that it was clear that by early 1986 the governments and those responsible for the blood system should have put tests in place and did not.

Canadians understand there is a difference between someone who is harmed when we could have prevented it and someone who faces a risk inherent in the clinical medical system. They also understand that if we offer cash to people who become ill just because they become ill, we cannot go on.

Governments have taken the tough decision to make that distinction and do the right thing.

Old Age Pensions

[Maurice Dumas, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on several occasions, I asked the Minister of Finance questions on old age pensions. It would seem that, pressured by many organizations, including the AFEAS, the minister has now changed his mind. But we still do not know what he has to propose.

When will the minister inform us of his intentions so that present and future retirees can stop worrying?

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, in the 1996 budget, the minister announced changes to old age pensions, which provide that every Canadian whose yearly income is over $40,000 will have to pay more.

On Monday, the minister had discussions with groups of seniors from across Canada. Discussions will continue, and he will take their views into account.

Youth Unemployment

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Secretary of State (Children and Youth).

There has been much talk about government measures to help students who plan to go to university but a lot less about the situation of those, and they are the majority, who do not and who face a much higher unemployment rate than university graduates.

Could the secretary of state tell this House what concrete steps the government has taken to help these young people?

[Ethel Blondin-Andrew, Liberal, Secretary of State (Children and Youth)]

Mr. Speaker, this year alone our youth employment strategy is helping over 95,000 youth to get valuable work experience to break the no experience, no work dilemma they undergo.

Under the strategy we are funding worthy projects, hundreds of them, making the bridge between school to work for young people. One great example of this is on May 14 the Minister of Human Resources Development will attend, along with 750 students in Vancouver, the fifth national skills Canada competition. Seventy-five per cent of youth do not go on to university and we need to encourage them—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Calgary Southeast.

Hepatitis C

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this brilliant Minister of Health has advised us there are four volumes—

[The Speaker]

Order. What we have here is one member saying this fellow is discredited, the other one is discredited, and we are just going back and forth. I appeal to members to address one another as hon. colleagues. I think that would help matters a bit for all of us.

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this health minister who has done so much research into the hepatitis C issue just advised us that there were four volumes of the Krever report. The last time we checked there were three volumes. I wonder if he has actually read them, because the provinces certainly have.

This health minister told his caucus members, implied, to allow themselves to be run roughshod over in the vote the other night, he would open up this file again. Then he said it is closed. Now the provinces have opened it up again.

This minister does not have a clue what is going on. Instead of calling the provinces names, why does he not work with them to—

[The Speaker]

The hon. Minister of Health.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, now we see what the source of the problem is. The Reform Party has not read the fourth volume of the report.

My point is that it is a careful and detailed report which indeed I have read. Mr. Justice Krever went through the history of this whole matter, examined what happened and when. It was very clear that from and after early 1986 those responsible for the system should have acted. They did not. People were harmed. The principle on which we are offering cash payments is not because people became sick. We do not do that in this country. We cannot. We are offering cash payments because there was fault.

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Actually, Mr. Speaker, maybe he missed the fourth volume because that was the one with the recommendation that every victim should be compensated. That seems to be a section of the report the minister seems to be completely unaware of. The province are not now. The same government which has accused the provinces of being cheap is the government that cut health transfers by billions of dollars, which has offloaded the medicare costs for hepatitis C victims on to the provinces.

How dare this minister and government take shots at the provinces which are doing their best to solve this problem. Why do they not exercise co-operative federalism instead of attacking their provincial partners?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member may not have read all the volumes of the Krever report but we have read the Reform platform. That platform says that if there is a Reform government it would scrap medicare. It would scrap the Canada Health Act.

If the hon. member wants to point the finger on health care, he had better point the finger back at his own party and his own leader and get them to change their position against medicare before he lectures anybody else.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, for the last month the government has been saying it is refusing to compensate all hepatitis C victims as a matter of principle. Tommy Douglas used to say that when they tell you it's not the money, it's the principle, you know it's the money.

Every Canadian can see it is not a matter of principle or precedent. It is the money.

If the minister will not reopen the deal with the provinces, will he now negotiate a new supplementary deal for all the rest of the hepatitis C victims?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I ask the hon. member what principle was the Saskatchewan NDP government of Roy Romanow following when it refused to have a free vote on a motion in the Saskatchewan legislature and all the members of the NDP in the legislature voted against changing the existing deal? Was there no lack of principle there? I do not say that, but he does.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I think Canadians deserve a better answer than that. I asked a legitimate question.

Now we have learned from the auditor general that the government has been fudging its books and hiding its money away from hepatitis C victims.

We all know the money is there. Why will the Minister of Health not show some real leadership and some real political courage and revisit the issue? If you will not open the old deal, negotiate—

[The Speaker]

Address your questions to the Chair, please.