House of Commons Hansard #109 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was sentencing.

Topics

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3:55 p.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley.

Let us look at the problem. The problem today is that crime is increasing. Some like to trot out statistics that it is not. They say it is going down. The reason crime is increasing is that 50% to 60% of non-violent crime and 40% of violent crime is not reported to the police. The fact is that crime is increasing. Youth violent crime in particular is increasing. It has doubled since 1986. What can we do?

There has been a failure of the system to deal with it. Our traditional response of detection, detention and deterrence simply has not worked. If one looks at them carefully the statistics bear that out. We have not been able to put forward a system that protects victims rights. We do not have a system that prevents crime, but there are solutions out there. What can we do?

I will put forth some constructive solutions that members of my party and other parties have been putting forth for some time. The first thing—

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3:55 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. When I look around I do not see that we have a quorum.

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3:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

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4:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

We have quorum.

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4:05 p.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for bringing in the members to listen to this speech. I hope it will live up to its advance billing.

In this hopefully riveting speech I was talking about justice and the Reform Party's motion today on what we can do to improve and revamp our justice system.

The first thing we have to realize is prevention. How do we prevent criminal activity? If we are to do this we have to peer at the roots of criminal activity. If we look at the people who are incarcerated in our jails many of them have had family histories that can only be described as a house of horrors. While their history does not exonerate them from their actions, perhaps it makes us understand how they came to have fractured psyches.

It starts often at time zero. It is estimated that half of all people incarcerated in our jails have fetal alcohol syndrome or fetal alcohol effects. Fetal alcohol syndrome is the leading cause of irreversible neurologic damage in our society today. It is increasing in geometric proportions. Some communities have incidence rates as high as over 60 per 1000 live births. These people have IQs of an average of 68. They have a great deal of difficulty in interpersonal relationships, a great deal of cognitive disabilities. It makes it very difficult for them to interact and engage in society. Some of these people go on to lives of crime or at best have difficulty interacting in society. We need to prevent this. In order to prevent it, we have to work in utero.

We also have to make sure that children are not subjected to abuse, sexual abuse, violence, improper nutrition or more subtle factors such as improper parenting and inconsistent parenting. All those factors in a cumulative effect have a dramatic effect on the building blocks of a normal psyche during that critical first eight years of life and in particular in the first three to four years of life.

Study after study demonstrates that the input we make in the first four years of life has a dramatic and profound effect on those individuals and is also highly cost effective. Programs from Moncton to Hawaii to Michigan have demonstrated a 50% to 60% reduction in youth crime, a 50% reduction in teen pregnancies, higher rates of employment, less dependence on welfare and a $6 saving for every $1 invested.

Head start programs are a win-win situation if they are done properly. I was very pleased that Motion No. 261 calling for a national head start program was passed yesterday by this House and I want to thank all the members who supported it from all parties, except the Bloc Quebecois that voted against it, and I applaud them for putting partisanship aside for the betterment of the children of this country. My hope is we will be working together to make this a reality.

Already five provinces and territories are on side and they want to work with the federal government, with parliament, to make this a reality. We can save a lot of people's lives and save a lot of money.

My colleague from Fraser Valley East put forth a very comprehensive victims bill of rights that we have been pushing forward. The government should adopt it. Far too many times we see victims are left in the shadows and salt is actually poured on to their open wounds as the result of a system that puts a preferential onus on the convicted and not on the victim.

We need to look too at alternative measures of sentencing. Restorative justice has been used in British Columbia and is starting to be used in a very cost effective manner. In British Columbia under this program it costs as little as $290 per individual, a dramatic saving from the $95,000 it takes to incarcerate a youth in a jail for a year.

Restorative justice works for a select group of individuals who are first time offenders for non-violent offences and where they have the approval of the community and, most of all, the approval of the victim. In a restorative justice program the incidence of recidivism has dropped dramatically. It is over 95% successful for individuals selected for that program.

We should also look at tougher penalties for individuals who are committing violent offences, repeat offenders, pimps, individuals who have shown an utter disregard for society. This population needs to be separated from the other individuals who are non-violent offenders, non-repeat offenders, first time offenders where there is a hope of trying to break them out of a cycle of crime, punishment and recidivism. My colleagues have put forth many constructive suggestions along those lines.

We have to look at naming young offenders, not only those who are committing violent offences, who are 16 and 17 years of age, but all violent offenders. The rationale is if we accept that restorative justice works at least in part on the principle of shaming, then why do we not name all individuals who are young offenders and committing offences, be they violent or non-violent offenders? Society has a right to know. The neighbour has a right to know whether the person beside them is a B and E artist or a sexual predator. The public has a right to know and public safety must be first and foremost in our justice system.

While these individuals are in jail let us make it obligatory that they engage in counselling sessions for violent behaviour or for their substance abuse problems. Let us make it obligatory that they take training programs so that once they get out of jail they can take up a role as an integrated part of society. There is no obligation. Right now people can be let out of jail and paroled with spending as little as one third of their sentence. When a person gets sentenced for nine years, they can be out after three. What kind of justice system is that?

Perhaps it is a better thing to say they are going to be sentenced to nine years but that they can earn having that sentence whittled down if they take the measures necessary to treat whatever problems they have, be they psychological, to get the skills necessary to become a functional member of society.

Also we have to look at post-discharge issues. When criminals get out of jail, we should have the systems in place to help them integrate into society. Many of them get lost in the shuffle, fall through the cracks and go back into a life of crime.

Let us talk about streamlining the justice system. We have a justice system that too often engages in a system where somebody is arrested and it takes a long time for that person to get to trial and be convicted. Justice delayed is justice denied. We can put forth a streamlined system and this is not difficult.

We should have immediately put forth a small group of individuals who can take constructive suggestions from around the world that have worked to implement right away into our system, to streamline it so that we manage to get the arrested person through to the court system to be judged by their peers and to either be exonerated or convicted and sentenced in an expeditious fashion.

This would be fair to society and to the victims. We also need to look at the system of how we put accountability into our system. Why do we not examine electing judges? Look at the experience in California where they have managed to elect judges while still managing to retain that separation of judicial independence from other parties such as this House.

It is possible to do that. It is possible to have elected judges and to still maintain judicial independence. It is just the way in which the individuals are elected. It would add accountability to a system that desperately needs an element of accountability.

We need to consider looking at changing our system of legal aid. Look at the public defender system. Again in certain parts of the United States they have managed to institute a public defender system that saved taxpayers millions of dollars while still, with retrospective analysis, showed that those individuals got as good or better treatment under the law as they would have in the existing system.

Look at a public defender system to replace the legal aid system we have now that is actually crushing under the demands placed on it.

If we fail to act that will be our biggest crime in this House. We have an opportunity not to study these issues for the nth time as we are apt to do in this House of Commons, not continue to examine an examination or study a study, but use the studies that have been done in this country, use the constructive solutions that have been put forth not only here but around the world, take the best of these solutions, discard what does not work and implement it.

For heaven's sake, for Canadians, for the victims, for the people we can prevent from getting into a life of crime, let us act now.

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4:15 p.m.

London West Ontario

Liberal

Sue Barnes LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Revenue

Mr. Speaker, the member has a good vantage point and has listened well to some of the strategies out there.

A lot of the comments he made fall very clearly into the agenda on a motion that passed in this House yesterday. Much of that motion of this hon. member was also relying on the ideas that the crime prevention council, especially with respect to young offenders, brought to the foreground in the last parliament and that is why this government supported that initiative and funded it.

I know this member very sincerely believes in restorative justice.

I listened to the member for Wild Rose talk about advisability, that he wished to have corporal punishment in our prison system. Could the hon. member advise me how this could be restorative justice?

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4:20 p.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. parliamentary secretary for her intervention and for her support in passing Motion No. 261. I know she believes in crime prevention. I also thank her for bringing up the fine work that the National Crime Prevention Council has done for so long and I hope we can use the constructive solutions the council has been putting forth and enact them into this legislation rather than for us to merely talk about them.

I was not privy to the previous discussion the member refers to. The member for Saanich—Gulf Islands and the member for Surrey had come to my riding and spoken very eloquently about restorative justice, about preventive measures and I hope members on the other side would consult with them along those lines.

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May 26th, 1998 / 4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Shaughnessy Cohen Liberal Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his intervention but also for his motion which I was proud to support yesterday. I think it fits very well with some of the goals the government has and clearly it fits with the goals that some in his party have.

There was an amendment voted on which the hon. member supported and I noticed the members for Nanaimo—Alberni, Prince George—Peace River, Blackstrap, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Okanagan—Shuswap, Athabasca, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Calgary Southeast, and Skeena, all of whom are Reform members of parliament and colleagues of this hon. member, did not support that motion, the intent of which was extend the benefits of the hon. member's initial motion to native Canadians.

I am wondering if he discussed this with them and what could possibly be their reason for not wanting to extend these benefits to our native children.

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4:20 p.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her question and also for the support she has given on Motion No. 261 and her actions on prevention.

I have not discussed the issue with my colleagues but members from this party have always supported a head start program for aboriginal people. The head start program that exists today exists within the aboriginal community and has been highly effective for that.

The member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale has been working with members of the public who have been leaders in pushing forth the aboriginal head start program which has been highly effective. I am hoping we can take elements from the aboriginal head start program and use those in employing a national head start strategy from which all Canadians will benefit regardless of whether they are aboriginal or non-aboriginal.

Perhaps all members from this side do not differentiate or like to categorize people as to whether they are aboriginal or non-aboriginal but would prefer to look at everybody as Canadians, respecting everybody's differences, everybody's individualities and respecting all what those people through their differences bring to our multicultural society.

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4:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Order, please. It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Charlotte: Hepatitis C; the hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill, The Budget; the hon. member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, Employment Insurance; the hon. member for Halifax West, Aboriginal Affairs; the hon. member for Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Banks.

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4:20 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

I am pleased to speak to the Reform Party's supply day motion, the Reform Party that has been the only party that has been crusading against crime since we came to this place, the only party that has been listening to the voices of average Canadians who have some genuine fears about our society and the safety in our streets and communities.

The motion today says that this House condemns, and condemn it should, the government for the deplorable state of Canada's criminal justice system and the government's lack of concern for public safety as demonstrated by its refusal to strengthen the Young Offenders Act, abolish conditional sentencing for violent offenders and introduce a victims bill of rights.

The government has failed miserably on all three counts. Since 1993 when it had an opportunity to bring in some real changes that would reflect some positive steps in our criminal justice system, it failed to do it. It has at best settled for some sort of tinkering around the edges of a badly flawed criminal justice system.

I cannot go on with this speech without bringing up something that happened earlier today. Under a barrage of questions from the Conservative Party and the Reform Party, we stood here in utter amazement and watched the Minister of Justice of the Government of Canada and her parliamentary secretary flee from this House in an attempt to evade questions. They were questions that came from real Canadians. They were questions about their safety and about the safety of their children. They were questions about the terrible crime rates.

No matter what the Liberals say about crime rates going down in some areas, the level of crime in this country is at an unacceptable level. Whether it has gone down or up, whichever way, the level of crime is simply unacceptable. The Canadian people have been saying do something to address crime. The government has failed miserably.

They fled from the House. Cowardice was shown by the minister and her parliamentary secretary as they fled from the House and from the questions that we brought forward from Canadians from all across this country.

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4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding by the hon. member. He keeps using phrases like fled from the House. I believe the situation was one that unanimous consent was required to continue with the question beyond the allotted time for the minister—

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4:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

That may well have been a point of clarification but it was not a point of order.

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4:25 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, the minister did have the opportunity to stay and answer the questions. She chose not to. She chose to not give unanimous consent.

The Liberal government has continuously accused the Reform Party of fearmongering. Let me tell members that it is the Liberal government that is spreading fear among society by its inaction of dealing with the criminal justice system and by its inaction of dealing with crime and the people who commit crimes. That is what is scaring people, not the Reform Party.

We talk about real life crime situations and things that are actually happening. We talk about people who are getting assaulted, killed, raped and molested. When we talk about those things, this is reality. The government accuses us of fearmongering. The people are afraid of this government. That is what they are afraid of. They are afraid of the inaction that is happening with this government.

Now we have a justice minister who has come up with this set of proposals to change the Young Offenders Act. It took well over a year to take some action. Now after all this time and after the continued questioning by our justice critic from Crowfoot on when she would be bringing it forward, she said in a timely fashion. Day after day we asked her when she would bring it forward. Finally, her version of making some changes and bringing forward legislation is bringing forward a strategy, nothing concrete, just a bunch of ideas that could change six ways from Sunday by the time they actually hit the House if they ever do.

There is no legislation. There are no changes to the Young Offenders Act. There is nothing. That is exactly what the Liberals have done with the criminal justice system since they came to power in 1993. Nothing.

I want to deal with conditioning sentencing, the scourge of the justice system. People are committing violent crimes every day and are walking out of the courtrooms without doing one minute of jail time because the disgraced health minister, the former minister of justice, brought in legislation to allow conditional sentencing. If ever there was a screwball idea in the justice system that was it. People are committing violent offences, assaults, attempted murders, rapes, molesting children and are walking out of prison without doing a day's time because they fall under the conditional sentencing.

The conditional sentencing provision is as heinous as some of the crimes that are happening which allow criminals to get out of jail and never serve any time.

I believe you would find consent for the following motion, Mr. Speaker:

That for the remainder of this session motions pursuant to Standing Orders 57 and 78(3) shall not be receivable by the Chair.

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4:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley has asked that for the remainder of this session motions pursuant to Standing Orders 57 and 78(3) shall not be received by the Chair. Is there consent for that motion?

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4:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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4:30 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to continue talking about conditional sentences. For people who are watching the debate, conditional sentencing is simply a loophole created by the former minister of justice which gives a judge the option of making a decision on whether people will be a threat to society and, if not, the judge can give the convicted people a conditional sentence of two years less a day that allows them to walk out of the court house.

I have no problem with someone getting a conditional sentence for shoplifting, for writing a couple of bad cheques or for committing some other misdemeanour crime because they are non-violent crimes. Certainly they will not be a threat to the safety of the community.

I will give some examples of people who are walking out of court under conditional sentencing. A fellow by the name of Fabian Torres received a conditional sentence in May 1997 after he pleaded guilty to manslaughter, which incidentally is killing somebody, in the shooting death of a 13 year old lad in 1995. He killed him and he walked out without serving one single day in jail.

On December 10, 1998 the Ottawa Sun reported “No jail term shocks victims”. A man who hypnotized his wife and forced his two step sons to have sex with her will not serve any time in jail. Justice Robert Desmarais handed Robert Demers a conditional sentence of two years less a day and two years probation.

I question once again the sanity of conditional sentencing. I also question the sanity of Justice Robert Desmarais who felt this was not a serious crime. The fellow did no jail time. The Edmonton Sun of March 18, 1998 reported that the sex exploiter was spared jail and talked of healing reserve. The man was convicted by Justice Cecilia Johnson of sexual exploitation. The judge noticed his lack of remorse when he denied the charges right up to sentencing but agreed to the defence lawyer's suggestion that he should receive a conditional sentence. Something is wrong with this picture.

People who are committing serious crimes are not spending any time in jail. That is what the Reform Party and the people of Canada are talking about, and the member just happens not to have been listening.

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4:35 p.m.

Liberal

John Harvard Liberal Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB

Mr. Speaker, as I listened to the hon. member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley I could tell that he and his Reform Party colleagues thoroughly enjoy this kind of debate. It is not the first time that members of the Reform Party have raised the issue of crime. They do it over and over again. The reason is that it scares people. People get very afraid when they hear the kind of talk that comes from the Reform Party. What is that called? It is called fearmongering.

The Reform Party has been in the House for about five years. Hardly a day goes by that it does not raise the issue of crime. What is that called? That is fearmongering. We could spell it with capital letters.

The member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley talks about conditional sentencing. He suggests that this is a terrible innovation in the criminal justice system. Let us make it absolutely clear that what he dislikes is giving discretion to judges. It is another attempt on his part and on the part of the Reform Party to smear judges.

It was not long ago when there was an issue in the House about the salaries of judges and Reform members smeared judges. They are doing it again today. It is absolutely unacceptable.

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4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Just before the hon. member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley responds, I remind the House that it is our custom not to refer to members of the judiciary by name in the House.

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4:35 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is very clear to me that while the member for Charleswood—Assiniboine and his colleagues would prefer to dream in Technicolor about the criminal justice system, that everything is all right, the Reform Party prefers to talk in real terms. We prefer to relay what the voices of the Canadian people are telling us when we come to the House.

We do not prefer to talk about some fuzzy philosophy that everything is okay and it is no one's fault. The fact is that crime is happening, serious crime. While the Liberals would prefer to cover it over and pretend it is not there, the Reform Party talks about it and will not stop talking about it. If the member for Charleswood—Assiniboine is getting tired of hearing us talk about it, I would suggest he not show up any more because we will not stop.

He talks about our talking about the judicial system. When I look at some of the decisions and sentences handed down by some judges, quite frankly if I were king of picking judges I would be throwing a lot of them off the bench for some of the idiotic and insane sentences and decisions they have been making.

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4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Shaughnessy Cohen Liberal Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, I point out to the member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley that in the period September 3, 1996 to December 31, 1997 there were 18,284 conditional sentences imposed. He has given an example of three that have gone awry, all three of which have been appealed. Others have been appealed and the courts of appeal are now stating that it is inappropriate to use conditional sentences in certain circumstances. Those circumstances are the very circumstances these members are complaining about.

It looks to me like conditional sentences are working and our judiciary is working.

Let me also remind the hon. member and his erstwhile colleagues of something that is very important. They are every bit as much a part of the criminal justice system as any judge. They have a responsibility that they abrogate every day not to fearmonger, not to malign people who are—

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4:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The hon. member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley.

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4:40 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, this is absolutely amazing. The member just said that the courts of appeal are now saying that some of these conditional sentences are not appropriate. What a revelation.

The last time I looked I thought it was the Liberal government that was supposed to be directing what happens in the criminal justice system. The former justice minister was the one who brought in conditional sentencing and it was his Liberal colleagues who supported it.

That is where the mistake was made. Now, surprise, surprise, after the Reform Party has been talking about it ever since the Liberal government brought in that insane legislation, the courts of appeal are now saying that it is not appropriate to let violent criminals walk out of jail with no jail time after being convicted.

We will never stop talking about the deplorable state of our justice system. We will never stop talking about the reality of the crime that is happening.

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4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to participate in the debate because I think it is a serious matter.

I first want to address myself to all young people in Canada and applaud the majority of them who managed to get through the teen years, very difficult years, without having to engage in the youth justice system. I do not think young people do this in a vacuum. Most of them have parents and teachers. Perhaps they have support through sporting activities and their daily lives. I applaud those young people, the majority of youth between ages 12 and 17 in Canada. They look like every other child on the street. They look the same as they walk down the street. They walk in groups and not in gangs. Most of them are wonderful children. They are at a time in history when it is very difficult to grow up and face the challenges in society.

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4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.