Madam Speaker, I would like to use certain facts and certain references to illustrate the importance of what the federal government is doing today.
At the 1964 federal-provincial conference, Quebec's position with respect to the federal student loan and bursary program was made known. According to the Premier of Quebec of the day, Jean Lesage, “Under the circumstances, in order to resolve the problem posed by the federal student loan policy, Quebec demands that the Government of Canada hand over to it, in the form of tax equivalencies, those amounts it would have reimbursed in interest payments on loans to Quebec students. We would accept as the basis for determining this equivalent amount the relative proportion of the population of Quebec”.
On leaving the conference, Premier Lesage declared “We most certainly cannot accept that the federal administration would err, regardless of whether or not it was in good faith, by invading an area that is indisputably under our jurisdiction and one which, what is more, we have been handling for the past three years. There is only one solution which would avoid the conflict which both sides most certainly wish to avoid, and that is tax compensation according to the Diefenbaker-Sauvé formula, which was used not long ago to resolve a similar problem to the real advantage of both governments. This is a solution that can be applied immediately, to spare us the complications and even serious disputes which would otherwise inevitably arise”.
This warning by Mr. Lesage, as he left the federal-provincial conference, was heard by the Canadian Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson.
In a telegram, Mr. Pearson said to Mr. Lesage “The federal government hopes to introduce shortly legislation to extend family allowance benefits to children aged 16 and 17 who are dependent either because they are unable to work for physical reasons or because they are still in school. In addition, the federal government intends to propose arrangements to permit university students in each province to obtain guaranteed bank loans up to the amount approved for a given student by the authorized provincial body”. The key sentence in the telegram reads “Any province preferring to confine itself to its own loans program may receive equivalent compensation”.
Since 1964, Quebec has developed the best student financial aid program. This has been confirmed by all those involved, from both inside the province and from the other provinces in Canada: “We want a loans and bursaries program. We want scholarships because our students have an average debt of $25,000 when they finish their studies, whereas in Quebec, the average debt is $11,000”.
They reported a succession of debates in Quebec. Students have demonstrated several times to make sure that the plan they end up with will suit their needs. Over the past 35 years, we have developed a plan that is based on students' financial needs. In Quebec, no one ever tried to include the notion of merit in it.
Today, the federal government wants us to pass a bill that will create the millennium scholarship foundation. These scholarships will include the notion of merit and will be distributed by a foundation that will reach agreement with certain provinces.
Why do you think the government chose this course of action rather than simply changing its student loan program into a loan and scholarship program and allowing Quebec to continue to exercise its right to opt out with full compensation? Why did it take this approach? Because the government wanted to be visible. The only valid reason was to ensure its visibility.
The Quebec government decided to show magnanimity. It said “we will give you that visibility”. During the negotiations, Mr. Bouchard told the Prime Minister “we will appoint negotiators if this is what you want. They will look at how this can be achieved and then we will propose concrete solutions to meet your visibility criterion”.
During the negotiations, Quebec said “if it means putting the Canadian flag on a cheque, so be it”. But this was still not good enough. Why? Because throughout the negotiation process, the Minister of Human Resources Development had no mandate to amend the act in any way, shape or form.
During clause by clause review of the bill, we debated for a whole day and said “Before reviewing this bill, should we not wait for the outcome of the negotiations with Quebec, to see what amendments may be made to the legislation?” The Liberals did not propose any amendments.
This is a perfect bill, one that requires no amendment at all. Yet, the members of the majority who sat with us in committee did see that there was indeed unanimity, but on the Quebec side. We are fully aware that this bill is designed to prevent Quebec from opting out with full compensation, and that Ottawa wants to achieve visibility at the expense of the needs everyone in Quebec agrees on.
Moreover, this will really hurt students, because it will again create dissension. We will end up with a dual system. Students are going to be applying for $3,000 federal government scholarships on the basis of financial need, but also on the basis of their marks and their merit. We do not know how merit will be defined. When these people apply for the $3,000 in Quebec, how will they be treated?
The situation is unacceptable. The government is not thinking about changing a program that does not work; it is thinking about changing, replacing and upsetting the best system in Canada. This is completely unacceptable.
The proof is that, this afternoon, I received a release from the Fédération étudiante universitaire et collégiale du Québec, signed by its president, Nikolas Ducharme. It reads as follows:
In its handling of the millennium scholarships issue, just as in its handling of the hepatitis C affair, the federal government must be the envy of certain authoritarian regimes. We are deeply disappointed with the attitude of the Prime Minister of Canada. Quebec students view democracy as coming from the people. When the people make a request, when citizens speak, when those they represent are critical, elected officials must listen.
The Fédération étudiante universitaire du Québec, the Fédération étudiante collégiale du Québec, the Coalition de l'éducation, the business community, the Parti Quebecois, the Liberal Party of Quebec, Action démocratique du Québec, and the National Assembly of Quebec have all spoken out against Bill C-36, and the Prime Minister has not listened.
And here is what students are asking the Prime Minister:
How can the Prime Minister of Canada have so little respect for democracy?
When we see the anger of students, we realize that it is because they are the ones, ultimately, who will have to apply for these scholarships. They will be in the situation of having to apply to two different governments for the same thing. I do not know whether all members have seen what a loan and scholarship application looks like. Each educational institution has to have someone to help the students. There are student loans and financial assistance advisors performing this function in cegeps and universities.
They are now going to have the pleasure of dealing with two forms, rather than just one, with two governments, and wondering whether they have the right to forward personal information to this private foundation. How are they going to deal with all this?
The situation is completely unacceptable. It is too bad that the government has taken this attitude, because we would have liked the negotiations to have produced essentially the same results as in 1964, when the federal government finally listened to what Quebec wanted. It took the same kind of pressure.
I quoted Mr. Lesage's statement a few moments ago. He even mentioned the possibility of legal proceedings. Well, this time, the Premier of Quebec opened the door to the Prime Minister of Canada, on May 15, 1998, by sending him a letter in which he explained to him exactly what was going on. He even proposed an amendment that would allow Quebec to withdraw with full compensation and to assume its responsibilities in this area.
As I was saying earlier, Quebec's position is not only that of the provincial government, but also that of the National Assembly. Here is the motion passed by the National Assembly:
That, for the benefit of Quebec students, the National Assembly urgently ask the Federal Government and the Quebec Government to resume the negotiations regarding the millennium scholarship in order that an agreement on legislative amendments respecting the following principles may be reached:
(a) The part granted each year to Quebec students is determined by means of a formula based on demographic parameters;
(b) Quebec selects the students who shall receive a scholarship;
(c) The scholarships are forwarded to the recipients in such manner so as to avoid all duplication and to ensure the necessary visibility to the Federal Government.
Furthermore, the National Assembly acknowledges the Quebec Government's intention to allocate the amounts thus saved in its scholarship programme to the funding of colleges and universities.
I think the message is very clear. There is a consensus. I could make an interesting comparison and point out to the Liberal majority that this consensus is even stronger than the one that existed regarding school boards. There are no opponents in Quebec in this case. The Liberal majority could not find a single witness that would come and tell the committee that this is a good idea.
A few years ago, after the referendum, this House adopted a motion on distinct society. If the federal government really wanted to show its good faith regarding the distinct society issue, it would not go any further with this bill. It would say “We have to resume negotiations with Quebec. We have to accept the amendment with the right to compensation. It would be the first time in several years that we can show our willingness to use a different approach with Quebec”.
I think it would be important for the Liberals to think about that. They may wonder why they have so much trouble getting members elected. It might be because they are losing touch with the grassroots. It is hard to get the whole picture from only part of the National Assembly, from the other side or from a party with only a handful of members, but in this case we have a unanimous motion passed by the National Assembly, a unanimous position taken by the Quebec education coalition, led by the president of McGill University.
This is not a debate between the sovereignists and the federalists, but between those who want the current Constitution to be respected and those who want it to be violated. This is the situation we find ourselves in.
English Canada does not understand that, when Quebec joined Confederation, jurisdiction over education was something to be cherished, something nobody could touch, then or in the future, as it is directly linked to the notion of a people. No nation in this world would entrust the education of its people to some entity other than the government in which it has a majority. Quebeckers will never accept that.
Now, the federal government had decided to bulldoze the Quebec government and the people of Quebec. It wants to impose its will, but it is actually shooting in its own net. I pledge to systematically remind everybody in Quebec that the federal government, in this debate, chose to ignore the unanimous consensus reached by all Quebeckers.
It took 35 years to build that consensus. It was not built in the last year, or over the past five years. It has been building since 1964, since Quebec and Canada reached a consensus on the advisability for Quebec to have an independent financial assistance system. That was 34 years ago.
Today, this consensus is being cast aside. This is it. Through the Liberal majority, the Canadian government has decided to impose its approach on Quebec in the area of education. This action will have far-reaching consequences. This is a historic moment, a grave moment that Quebeckers are not about to forget.
In the years to come, we will be able to tell all Quebeckers “This government in which you do not even have a majority voice has decided to step into what you felt is the most important area and, while this fundamental jurisdiction is covered by the Confederation pact, to disregard this pact”.
This is turning out to be a money issue. The federal government has the power to spend and it spends whichever way it pleases. We have seen what this attitude has led to in recent years.
The millennium scholarship foundation may be a suitable concept for the other provinces of Canada, but it is not for Quebec, where it has been unanimously rejected. That is why I move the following amendment:
That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word “That” and substituting the following:
“Bill C-36, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 24, 1998, be not now read a third time but be referred back to the Standing Committee on Finance for the purpose of reconsidering Clauses 2 to 46 creating the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation.”