Mr. Speaker, I extend my appreciation for the clear and forthright manner in which the parliamentary secretary to the justice minister has put forward the program of government in the bill and the rationale that she has presented. We can examine that and we can critique that, and I appreciate that.
I rise today to debate Bill C-37 for the last time. This is the third occasion I have had the opportunity to state Reform's opposition to the bill which grants judges an unprecedented salary increase within the public service of 8.3% over the next two years.
For those who are listening or who may be reading Hansard either in paper form or on the Internet, I want to point out that 8.3% over the next two years does not tell the whole story. We have to ask 8.3% of what. It is of the base salary judges are making at this time. The average salary of federal court judges is approximately $140,000 a year.
The question is whether this is the appropriate time to be taking more wealth out of the hands of the people to give our public servants, in this case our federal court judges, a raise at a time when families are struggling to make ends meet and to keep body and soul together.
As I said in earlier debates on this subject I think this is wrong. It is the wrong time. I often wonder about the Scott commission which made this recommendation to parliament and that representation to the justice committee when witnesses were called. Mr. Scott himself appeared. I wonder if members of that commission went to the people of the country, to the families that money will come from to grant federal court judges that kind of a raise. I ask as well if members of the government have considered this not only in view of Bill C-37 but also in view of the report table that will give MPs a 2% raise, which amounts to about a 10% increase over the next four years. Is this the time to be doing this?
I say that it is not. We should be asking the people who will pay more in taxes whether or not this is fair and whether or not judges and members of parliament at our salary levels can suffer a bit longer, perhaps another two or three years. Perhaps we can see our way clear to giving the people of the country an economic benefit either through enhancing the economic climate of the country or reducing taxes to them and allowing them to take home more pay.
Would it not be wonderful if we did that first? The Scott commission and the government are now asking the people of the country to dig deeper into their pockets to give someone making the pay of an MP or the pay of a judge, $140,000 on the average for a federal judge, more pay so that they can take home a greater benefit. There is something wrong with this, and I just want to give some statistics.
Before I go any further I express my gratitude to the House and to the government for accepting my amendment to Bill C-37 that was supported and passed earlier this week. As a result every four years the standing committee on justice will have the opportunity to review the report of a commission on judges' salaries and benefits.
This task will not be left solely to the Minister of Justice. We will be able to call witnesses from the public to see whether any increase recommended by the commission to be established by the bill is fair, to see what are the economic conditions of families and people of Canada at the time, and to see whether there is a proper balance between the need for more take home pay by judges and the plight of Canadian families. We must remember that it is reported that one child in every five is living in poverty.
Did the Scott commission consider that? Did the commissioners realize that by asking for this kind of pay raise for federal court judges they would be taking money from the families of those children who are reported to be living in poverty? They are living in poverty while our judges are taking home a minimum of $140,000 a year on average.
There is something wrong. I understand the need to attract the best in the legal community to the bench. Surely there are top legal minds out there who are prepared to serve their country and its people and to show the leadership we so desperately need in this area.
A poll in July 1997 showed that 52% of Canadians had little faith in their courts, in their judges. Why is that? The people are saying to us, to the courts and to other Canadians that they are dissatisfied with the leadership being shown in some of the decisions being made by judges, which indicates very clearly that some decisions are not being made in the best interest of the majority of the people.
Are they pleased to be taxed more? Are they pleased that the power of the state is being used to take more money from people including families whose children are reported to be living in poverty in order that judges might have more take home pay? This is the wrong time.
I agreed with my Bloc colleague on the committee when he pointed out that it was not the right time. Should we not wait until we see the heads of families taking home more income than they are now before we begin to give ourselves and judges a raise? There is no question in my mind. If the government would take the proper economic course we would not be far from that.
The government has balanced the budget mainly on the backs of taxpayers. We are now in a position where we might be able to offer tax relief and debt reduction and to give our children and grandchildren hope that one day they will be able to take more of their dollar home. Fifty per cent of every dollar the average Canadian earns is taken by taxes in one form or another, and now the Scott commission and the government are asking that they take less home. Why? It is be cause we must have a pay raise of 10% over the next four years and the judges must have a pay raise of very close to 10% over two years, compounded as it is.
Let me give some statistics. According to an Ottawa Citizen article on June 10, family incomes are still dropping. As a result Canadians need to stretch the family budget more to keep a roof over their heads. The reason is that while housing costs eased during the first half of this decade family incomes declined even more. That nudged the proportion of Canadians who spend at least 30% of their income on shelter and thus potentially face problems covering their housing costs to one in four households or almost 2.8 million households. These are the people the government and the Scott commission are asking to pay a little more.
Why? First, the judges want more money. We have to make sure they take home more pay even though the people of Canada will not be able to take home to their families more pay to provide for their children and their needs in the areas of clothing, food and shelter. We spend more on taxes in Canada than we do on those three items. We are the highest taxed country in the G-7. Why? Is it not because of decisions such as this? Is it not because of legislation such as this? Through the force of law we are to take more money from these people. I do not think that is right.
The findings I referred to were released by Statistics Canada and were derived from the 1996 census. An additional Citizen article on the same date also revealed that more and more two parent families had two parents in the workforce in 1996 while at the same time the number of children left at home was increasing.
Statistics Canada reported that the overall lower incomes among Canadians in 1996 is the reason both parents were being forced into the labour market. Is that not wonderful, while judges and MPs will be taking home more money? How can we go back to our constituents and argue that? How can we do that? How can we say to those folks that we know they are struggling?
My constituency is facing a drought. I received a call from a rancher out in the Byemoor area of my constituency who said they were finished if it did not rain. They will have to sell off their herds. Their cattle are being moved out to the grasslands now because there is no grass. We are saying to them that is their problem but we need more money from them. Why? It is because we want to have more take home pay and we want the judges to have the same. How can we do that? I cannot do that.
We stand as the opposition to cry out against it. Although there are good things in the bill to which I will come that we could support, we cannot support a bill that will do this to the people of Canada. We just cannot do it. How can we look in the mirror and say this is fair? How can we do that?
As elected representatives of the people we are required to justify this to the source of our authority, the people who elected us, the people we represent. We represent everyone in our constituency, even those who voted against us. We have a duty to stand on guard to protect the economic viability of their farming and ranching operations. Some of them take home meagre pays.
My wife and I raised four children. I have young twin sons who are in the labour force now. The tax return of one son showed that he made $14,000 working at just above minimum wage. He had to pay with taxes and deductions almost $2,000. The bill is saying that Spencer Ramsay will be required to pay more. Why? It is because judges want to take home more pay and members of parliament want to take home more pay. He will have to provide that for us through the force of law and if he does not we will take him to court. We have ways of dealing with him.
There is something wrong with this story. There is something wrong when we do this to our own people and then we cry—