Debates of Sept. 24th, 1998

Apec Summit

[John Reynolds, Reform, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Acting Prime Minister should realize that I was not there then. I was not a member of the Mulroney government.

I want to quote for him again what the present heritage minister said about that bill in debate. She said that the commission would be hamstrung and only be allowed to have internal investigations and review evidence, but would not be allowed conduct its own investigation.

Members of this government in opposition did not like this bill. They did not like the aspect that it is not independent and it cannot investigate the government. Why have they changed their minds?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I want to apologize to the hon. member for not recalling exactly when he left. I guess his aura hung over the government at the time this bill—

[The Speaker]

We all heard the question and I know we would like to hear the answer. The hon. Deputy Prime Minister.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think the best thing to do is to let the commission do its work. Once it makes its report, if there are valid complaints to be made, then they can be brought up and dealt with at that time.

Right now the words of the statute give the commission the powers to look into complaints, to investigate, to hear evidence and to make public reports.

Let the commission do its work. That is what the student protesters are asking. Why is the opposition trying to undermine the concerns of the student protesters instead of letting them have the process they themselves have asked for?

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to date, the Prime Minister has denied all involvement in the APEC affair.

However, we learn that a witness saw him becoming personally and directly involved in security matters at the opening of the summit.

How should we interpret the behaviour of the Prime Minister, who was still saying at the start of the week that he knew nothing, as more and more testimony and facts incriminate him?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has categorically denied the testimony of this so called witness.

The witness claims not to have heard what the Prime Minister was actually saying at the time. Therefore the allegations made by the leader of the third party are totally erroneous.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we know what a denial from the Prime Minister is worth; he said he would abolish the GST. His denial is no reassurance.

In the light of the latest facts and given that we know the Prime Minister was personally involved at the heart of the action, given that he “clennetted” a demonstrator across the river, and that he was the one giving the RCMP orders, how much credibility can the RCMP investigation have if the Prime Minister is refusing to testify?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the commission did not ask the Prime Minister to testify. Second, the commission established by this Parliament works at arm's length from the government and the RCMP.

So let us let the commission do its work. This is the request of the students who submitted their complaints to this commission.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister said, and I quote: “I am a populist and I can even defend myself on occasion”.

Unfortunately, the Prime Minister has lost control of himself more than once.

Is it not a bit of a concern to Canadians to have a Prime Minister who completely loses control of himself in tense situations?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is the Bloc Quebecois that has completely lost control, with its misguided questions today.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the Prime Minister realize that, by engaging in conduct so inappropriate to his office, he brings discredit on all Canadians, purely for the purpose of keeping a paranoid dictator happy?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I wonder who prepared that question. Was it Mr. Landry or Mr. Parizeau?

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister and the Solicitor General keep dodging our questions by hiding behind the Public Complaints Commission.

But how can the commission do its job and get at the truth if the Prime Minister is not to appear and if the PMO has destroyed crucial documents? Why the cover-up?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the NDP is making an allegation which, as far as I am aware, is not founded on fact. Second, the commission has not asked the Prime Minister to appear. Third, the commission was set up by this Parliament. It was given powers by this Parliament. There has been no indication in any way that it will not do the job expected of it by this Parliament and, more important, the job expected of it by the student protesters who have lodged their complaints before that commission.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Student protesters, Mr. Speaker, who are not going to get any legal representation.

Yesterday the Prime Minister refused to answer questions about the destruction of APEC documents. Today we learned that former operations director, Jean Carle, has admitted to destroying documents pertaining to Spray-PEC.

What is the PMO hiding? Who are they trying to protect?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

The first thing I have to do, Mr. Speaker, is to look into the accuracy of the hon. member's assertions and innuendo. After I check into them either I myself or the Prime Minister will reply more fully.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, ministerial permits to allow a general and six of Suharto's commandos into Canada were issued the same day that Indonesians applied for them, November 19, 1997. These permits were issued after the Indonesians asked the RCMP if it was okay to shoot Canadian protesters, and a week before the APEC summit.

Could the Minister of Immigration tell us when or if her officials informed the RCMP that she issued these permits and will she table any documents related to these permits in this House?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the question of security around the APEC summit falls within the mandate of the RCMP. Therefore it is the subject of a Public Complaints Commission investigation. We have to protect the integrity of that investigation to get to the truth, despite the fact that many would have that integrity questioned here in the House.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for issuing permits into Canada, not the Solicitor General, and it is not about the Public Complaints Commission.

We know that permits to let Suharto's commandos into Canada were issued. Under the law only the Minister of Immigration can issue them.

These permits were issued after the RCMP were asked by the Indonesians if it was okay to shoot Canadians.

On what basis did the Minister of Immigration issue the permits? Did the Prime Minister's office ask her to issue them? Did her office immediately inform the RCMP that the permits had been issued?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said this week many times, the reality is that security questions fall within the purview of the RCMP. Since the RCMP is the subject of a public complaints commission inquiry, which was asked for by the protesters themselves, it would be imprudent, in fact inappropriate, for me to do anything that might influence politically the outcome of that investigation.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, quoting from today's Vancouver Sun , an article by Peter O'Neil says “the commissioner of the Public Complaints Commission says he is still trying to obtain documents from the Prime Minister's Office, the Privy Council and the Department of Foreign Affairs”.

We remember Somalia. We remember the Krever inquiry. We remember the destruction of documents, and we did not receive an assurance from the Prime Minister or the solicitor general yesterday that there would be no destruction of documents.

Will we have that assurance today? Yes or no.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has my assurance that at this point there has been no indication of any problems in that regard.

In fact the council for the commission very specifically said there have been no problems getting access to any information requested.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that is a pretty cute answer coming from the solicitor general. It speaks to the whole issue of the level of the inquiry that is going on.

There is no level of inquiry. It is under the Public Complaints Commission, and I quote from the RCMP Act “They only may look into any member or any other person employed under the authority of this act”.

That is what the Public Complaints Commission can look into. It is strictly a snow job that the solicitor general is doing the cover-up for this—

[The Speaker]

The hon. solicitor general.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, this inquiry has exactly the same powers as the kind of inquiry the hon. member was demanding, very specifically the powers of a board of inquiry.