Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak on Bill C-9.
I would like to begin with a brief aside and some comments to the Leader of the Official Opposition. Perhaps we cannot ask him questions, but we can at least react to his speech as a whole. I saw him, and in particular I heard him, imputing motives to each of the political parties in the House of Commons.
To begin with, I must challenge the entire argument put forward by the Leader of the Opposition. I agree with him on only one point: that the Reform members are probably going to be the only ones voting against the bill on native people we have before us today.
The Leader of the Opposition has just told us about the woman who came out of the woods to conquer the work force. The Reform Party's attitude, its intransigence on the aboriginal issue, the immigrant issue, are what will perhaps make it the only one voting against bills of such scope addressing aboriginals, immigrants and so on.
I too have a story for the Leader of the Opposition. When I was a little boy of nine or ten, I was not an army cadet, but my friends were. I remember that they had a review every year. We all lined the streets to see the cadets all march past together.
I clearly remember being there with my mother watching the parade pass by. The neighbour, whose son was in the parade, exclaimed “My goodness, look at that. My son is the only one in step”. I looked at my mother, who smiled, and I realized she was thinking the same thing I was: her boy was probably the only one out of step.
It is more or less the same thing with Reform. They are pretty much the only ones not in step as far as the aboriginal question is concerned, probably because of their excessive intransigence with respect to bills relating to aboriginal people and immigrants. So I felt it was important to start off with that little story.
I would like as well, at the start, to salute all the Nisga'a, who must be following today's debate on television. I would like to congratulate them and pay tribute to those who came to parliament hill in the summer to provide support and explanations. They are here again for the debate. I want to tell them that I am extremely proud of the work they have done. Joe Gosnell has been here on parliament hill for a few days, as has Harry Nyce, who is currently in the gallery and following the debate with interest.
Finally, after about 100 years, now is not the time to become discouraged. I repeat the comment made by Joe Gosnell: “Just a few more days and the canoe will reach the bank”. They will have an agreement on self-government. On this point, they can certainly count on the support of the Bloc Quebecois.
Here in the House, we often debate the legal scope of a given section, the political scope of a decision the party makes, but I would also like to draw to the attention of my colleagues in this House the fact that there is also human scope to these debates. As members of parliament, we defend the viewpoints of our electors and of also certain persons we may be representing in specific instances such as in native matters.
It seems important to me as well for us to always take this into account in our analysis grid when we consider a bill. We have to look at how those affected by our decisions will react.
Indian affairs, in my opinion, is an absolutely extraordinary portfolio for the person holding it, because there are a number of ways to act. I personally am among those who believe strongly in interpersonal relationships. There is nothing better than visiting a native reserve to understand native life.
I have had occasion to go to a number of native reserves and I have had the opportunity, the privilege and the honour of twice visiting Nisga'a territory. I am pleased to say that my first visit had nothing to do with bills before the House. Having done some reading on the topic, I felt that this was one of the greatest aboriginal nations in Canada. Having some familiarity with native peoples in Quebec, I thought I might like to get to know something about native peoples in the rest of Canada.
I therefore went to Nisga'a territory. One thing that made quite an impression on me was the landscape. I have been twice now and I am still struck by it. One can understand the attachment of native peoples to their sea, their land, their waterways, including the Nass River, and all the fauna; all this is woven into their philosophy.
The colour of the river running through the Nass valley is very striking. There is nothing like it in Quebec or in Ontario. It is greenish and crystal clear. It is the runoff from glaciers. I could see that not only was the landscape extraordinarily beautiful but that it played an important role in the vision that aboriginals have of their land.
I was struck not just by the landscape, but by the people living there, because this is where the importance of the bill before us today begins to hit home.
I do not think I could speak as knowledgeably today if I had not experienced life on their land. Through these trips, I discovered not only the great Nisga'a nation, but also the human drama behind their desire for greater control over their destiny. I consider it very important to say this.
I was impressed by the lava beds, where close to 2,000 Nisga'a died following an eruption which occurred several centuries ago. The area is now a national park. People should see how the area was devastated and how nature is coming back to life again after hundreds of years.
The Nisga'a show respect for the terrible tragedy that struck these communities. There were two communities and 2,000 Nisga'a died because of the eruption.
It is interesting to see how this event is explained in the Nisga'a territory. There is a bit of mysticism and also a great deal of symbolism. We are told, among other things, that before the disaster, young children had begun to not respect nature and to make wildlife suffer. Today, the elders explain to the young Nisga'a that they must always respect nature and anything that lives in it. It is their belief that the disaster occurred because that respect was lost at some point.
This says a lot about the philosophy and the importance that aboriginals attach to nature, to what they call “Mother Earth”.
I had the opportunity to visit a village which, in my opinion, has the nicest totems of all. I visited many aboriginal villages, but I never saw such fine totems as those found in that Nisga'a community. Along the Nass River, artists build totems that are some fifty feet high, a task that can take them up to a year. Again, their deep respect for nature is well illustrated with sculptures representing animals such as wolves, owls, hawks and also whales, for which they have great respect. All animals are represented on these huge totems, and it is most interesting to discover the Nisga'a culture.
You also meet great people. My driver, Eric, the person who was my guide last time, is on parliament hill at this very moment. He made a point of showing me all that and of taking me to visit his mother, of introducing me to his family and taking me to the salmon smokehouse, where people eat it together and where it is shared, and with great respect once again accorded fish resources. Such things move me and now permit me, when I come to the bill, to say “This is not only beautiful country, there are fine people living there as well”. Today we must make it possible for these people to fly on their own. And here I only hint at the symbol of the bird.
I think that, at the moment, and this is one of the first disagreements I will have with the leader of the official opposition, the Indian Act can no longer remain unchanged. It represents a cage for them. The Nisga'a are like a great powerful bird, like an eagle, and are imprisoned in a cage called the Indian Act. The key to opening this cage is the bill before us today, which will permit the Nisga'a to fly, establish infrastructures, elect their people and see that the values reflected are their very own. I think this is how they will integrate.
In a few minutes I will speak at length of the issue of equality. The Reform Party has not understood that equality is not the panacea that will solve everything. We Quebecers do not like to be told that Quebec is just another province. I do not think the Nisga'a like to be told they are Canadians like everyone else. I beg to differ; they are not like every other Canadian. There were several attempts, even by the Liberal government in 1969, to assimilate these people. The government of the time was forced to backtrack because it would have had a revolt on its hands if it had continued.
It is important not to assume that equality will solve everything. That is not true. Quebecers have always demanded distinct status; there has never been any willingness to give it to them. Now the aboriginal people are being given distinct status. They will, of course, continue to evolve within the Constitution as we know it; they will continue to be citizens of British Columbia and of Canada, but they will first of all be Nisga'a citizens. One does not need to be an expert in aboriginal affairs to understand that these people's first reaction is to recognize their own nation.
When I go on to various reserves and ask people “How do you see yourself?” I ask those in Quebec, for instance, whether they consider themselves Quebecers or Canadians. The answer is always “I consider myself a Montagnais” or “I consider myself an Inuit” or “I consider myself an Abenaki”. They go on to identify with something else, but they acknowledge their own status first.
I would also like to explain the democratic and peaceful process engaged in by the Nisga'a, for this situation has been continuing for over 100 years as the Nisga'a have tried to solve the problem, to attain greater independence. As long ago as 1880, they were making representations to the Parliament of Canada, saying “We would like to have greater control over our future”. Things took a long time to get moving. During the 1970s there started to be some slight recognition of aboriginal title and ancestral rights.
I met Mr. Calder, a great Canadian and a great Nisga'a in the Speaker's office. In 1973, he was the first to succeed in making any progress toward recognition of ancestral and aboriginal rights. He is a great Canadian, a great Nisga'a, and he was responsible for the great step forward in case law and the philosophy of the courts with respect to the recognition of ancestral rights.
In 1973, there was the Calder ruling and, during the negotiations, this was what forced the federal government to recognize that it would have to negotiate with the Nisga'a. In fact, I have been, and am still, critical of the government for always lagging behind the courts. It is time it showed a bit more leadership and resolved certain native problems for once and for all. But it is still reacting to supreme court decisions, the Marshall ruling being the most recent example.
It was the same with the Calder ruling. It was not until 1976, a few years after the decision was handed down, that the government said it would begin negotiating with the Nisga'a. Since these are tripartite agreements, it tried to get British Columbia to take part. In 1990, this province joined the negotiations. Finally, in 1996, an agreement in principle was signed and, in August 1998, a final agreement was reached.
That having been done, parliamentary steps had to be taken. These too were tripartite. The Nisga'a were the first to cast their vote: 61% of those eligible to vote in the referendum were in favour of the treaty. Those who want to dismiss the treaty out of hand, without knowing anything about the more than 100 years of history behind it, without knowing the recent history, when people have been pushing for this for thirty some years, which is how long negotiations have been going on, and when this has all been worked out between three parties, chose perhaps to ignore this or are simply unaware.
This is why I think it is important that the rules of democracy and parliament be respected. It is true that there was also considerable opposition in British Columbia before it was passed. As well, there are perhaps some people around who are scaremongering, who are dwelling a bit on the negative. I am thinking of the leader of the opposition, among others. I have read a number of articles that appeared in B.C. newspapers, and I know who is stirring up the opposition in this kind of bill.
Now, it is up to us. We are the last. Once the Senate has given its approval, it will be law. We will see exactly what I was saying earlier. The Nisga'a will fly on their own.
There are constitutional issues of course, and there have been constitutional debates in British Columbia over whether we are amending the Constitution or not. We are not of that school. We say the Constitution is not being amended. The balance of powers among the provinces, Canada and British Columbia is not changed.
Sections 25 and 35 of the Constitution remain unchanged with this bill. That is our claim. We are not saying that we have the absolute truth. We can understand people's contesting it. For us, however, that is what we think, and I will put it in context right away.
In my opinion it is spelled out in the agreement. The charter of rights and freedoms has priority. No one on Nisga'a territory can violate the charter of rights and freedoms without risking correction by the courts. It is very clear in the agreement.
Finally, there will be no more reserves, as provided in the law. Now it will be Nisga'a lands with a Nisga'a government.
There are also legal decisions and validity issues. If anything is to be tested, there will always be the courts to turn to. There is no way the Nisga'a can decide 56 things and there be no possibility of appeal. There can be no appeal on Nisga'a territory. That is not the way it will be at all. The British Columbia superior court, the Supreme Court and the Federal Court will always have the right of appeal. Legal guidelines have been put in place and they are there.
Yesterday I reread the treaty for the second or third time. I thought to myself that at last, after 100 years of trying, 30 years of intense negotiations, the ideal marriage had been reached between aboriginal tradition and modernity. I looked at several particular points, which I will use to demonstrate this.
The land issue: now the Nisga'a will own their own lands in fee simple. Moreover, all the lands are listed in the agreement. They are all given. They have already been assigned to certain individuals. These individuals will become direct owners of the lands in question. There is no longer collective ownership as there was under the Indian Act, and it is important to realize this.
It has often been said “Under the Indian Act, ownership is collective”. When ownership is collective, people do not pay attention, they are dependent; the decision on how property will be allocated comes from Ottawa, and it is often the band council that decides. Now it is very clear: all lands will be owned in fee simple. These people will, therefore, own these lands. This is an important step, and also a very important difference.
As for forestry resources, and the whole natural resource issue, this will be a favorite topic for my Reform friends from the west, who will say “It is dreadful that there are so many uncertainties”. I have looked at the forestry and fisheries aspects and the underground resources, and there are dozens of pages explaining how this will work.
When it is explained to us how this is going to work, I would remind the House that this agreement was signed between the Nisga'a Nation and British Columbia and that, despite the minister's signature, what is missing is the legislation to give effect to that agreement. This is what we are discussing today.
So, as far as I am concerned, the certainty is there. As regards forestry resources, we can see that it is all set out in the agreement, which is a lot better than the way it was before. I have already visited Nisga'a territory, as I mentioned before, and I visited Chilcotin territory in British Columbia as well. I have also visited Carrier Sekani territory. What did I find there? Beautiful countryside, I agree, but deteriorating rapidly.
I remember visiting Chilcotin territory and meeting about 100 trucks, which were doing their best to remove the timber resources as quickly as possible. That was before there were agreements with the native peoples. I have often criticized that with the minister and the main provincial ministers as what I would call the “race for the natural resources”.
That must be criticized, because the pulp and paper manufacturers, while I have a lot of respect for them, clearly get themselves ready to clear cut the land when they know an agreement on self-government is imminent and promises native peoples “Your lands are yours; do as you will with your forests”.
This is not what the native peoples do. I was offended that, in the course of the steps toward self-government, there was a rush to take away the natural resources and that, afterwards, the negotiations mysteriously began to move. It was easy afterwards. They were told “We will give you this land”, but, strangely, there is nothing left.
Now there is some certainty with the Nisga'a agreement. Everything is laid out in black and white: riparian management; cut block design and distribution; road construction, maintenance and deactivation; reforestation; soil conservation; biodiversity; hazard abatement, fire preparedness and initial fire suppression; silvicultural systems and logging methods; and forest health.
Quite frankly, I have every confidence in native peoples because, as I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, for them, Mother Earth is their life. One has only to see how they view the earth to understand that these are not people who are going to engage in clearcutting. These are not people who are going to jeopardize the future of their forests just to make a buck. For me, this is a given.
They will also be required to conform to certain standards and existing crown standards will apply to all this. We therefore have certain guarantees, in my view, and anyone who says otherwise is simply fearmongering.
As for access and roads, because the land will be turned over to the Nisga'a, it is mentioned in the agreement that the public will have reasonable access. Naturally, access will also be granted to non-Nisga'a owners in fee simple because there is something else the Nisga'a have understood perfectly well and that is that the non-natives, non-Nisga'a who are remaining on Nisga'a lands will not be simply cast out. They will continue to be told “You have property; it is yours. You have taxes to pay and you will pay them to the federal and provincial governments respectively”. Therefore, the agreement states that these people must have access to their property.
I was also pleased to see that the Nisga'a Highway received considerable attention in the treaty. I would call that modern. As I mentioned earlier, the treaty is a blend of tradition and modernity, and the Nisga'a Highway is one example, an attempt to link the four Nisga'a communities by means of a very interesting corridor.
As for the fisheries, again there is certainty. I cannot understand why anyone would try to link this with the Marshall decision. The problem in that case was that there were no provisions in place. Here, the agreement contains, from page 111 to 143, a clear, point by point, explanation of the way aboriginal fisheries will be administered.
Among other things, people will not need any licences. It must be clearly understood that, according to Nisga'a tradition, fishing, hunting and gathering are traditions that have been part of their lives since time immemorial.
It must be understood therefore that if these people decide to go fishing it is certainly not our job to tell them to go buy a fishing or hunting licence from the provincial government. They will naturally go to the Nisga'a government. When I say that everything is explicit, it must always be kept in mind that this is a tripartite agreement. British Columbia, Canada and the Nisga'a are in agreement.
The provision is for the harvest of a certain percentage of sockeye salmon to be allowed. There is also a percentage set for pink salmon.
If there are surpluses, how will they be divided? That is also set out. There are also provisions on steelheads, both summer-run and winter-run, because these fish run twice a year.
I found that the salmon wheel was a most ingenious way of catching salmon. I saw a salmon wheel when I was in the Yukon and I thought it had been invented by Yukon aboriginals, but the Nisga'a told me that they were the ones who had invented it. It is interesting how it works. Since the salmon always swim upstream, a paddle wheel is installed. The paddles are in the water and, because the current is still flowing downstream, the wheel turns. When the fish come upstream, they are scooped up by the paddles and deposited in a box. This is how the aboriginals capture their fish live. I thought it was quite an ingenious method and I was told that it had been used by native peoples for a very long time.
There are also numerous provisions having to do with aquatic plants, as well as the three kinds of crab found there. Nothing has been left to chance. There are dungeness, snow and king crab. The agreement contains related provisions, as well as provisions regarding halibut, shrimp and herring.
There is also an annual fishing plan, which the Department of Fisheries and Oceans will help prepare and which will reflect the needs of aboriginals and all parties. It is an annual plan because the resources can fluctuate.
In the end, it is not all that complicated. It is almost the opposite of what is now happening on the east coast, where there are hardly any provisions and where everyone is busy interpreting the court ruling with their own interests in mind. Here, there will be no room for interpretation since it is all spelled out in the agreement.
Here again, we have to note the concern for conservation where the Nisga'a, provincial and federal governments agreed on the creation of a conservation trust, to be called the Lisims Fisheries Conservation Trust.
The aim of the trust is to promote the conservation and protection of species. The native people, as I have said, have always treated them with respect. They have no interest in lakes or rivers being emptied and the subsequent end of their traditions. I think this is good evidence of what they want to see happen.
There is even a provision on processing plants. There is no desire to kill the local economy, so provision has been made for a transition period in which the native people have agreed not to establish processing plants. For eight years, they will let the existing plants continue to operate, that is process fish. The plants will be informed however that, in eight years' time, the aboriginals will be in a position to have their own processing plants.
As far as environmental assessment is concerned, it is not complicated. Provincial and federal laws are to apply on Nisga'a territory. For example, environmental assessment and protection studies must meet provincial and federal standards. If they want even stricter standards, there will be no objection. Once again, this is a good security device.
I will now speak briefly about the Nisga'a government. Recognition of a Nisga'a government is consistent with self-government. There will be a central government, and the agreement clearly describes how officials will be selected. There will be four governments, one in each of the villages, with jurisdiction over certain areas. They have prepared their constitution, which is in a way their raison d'etre, and one of the topics it addresses is how all these powers will be divided.
They have also determined the relationship with non-Nisga'a. Thist will be the point I will address next. The agreement contains a Nisga'a citizenship proposal. Persons other than Nisga'a citizens residing within Nisga'a territory have access to its lands, its buildings, its assets and its public institutions. The minister has already referred to this. Those with children may want to send them to the Nisga'a village school. Naturally, the parents will have a vote and a voice on the school board. They will also have a voice on the board of the health institution, because it may be faster to seek care at the village hospital or dispensary than to go to Terrace or Rupert.
This demonstrates considerable openness, since these people will not be paying taxes but will be allowed to participate. Non-aboriginal residents will perhaps pay school taxes, but their other taxes will go to the provincial and federal governments. The fact that the Nisga'a permit them to be part of these boards does, however, show openness.
The Nisga'a government will, of course, be responsible for establishing the Nisga'a institutions. It will have complete jurisdiction over the creation of the small Nisga'a public service. Who is better placed than the Nisga'a themselves to administer the powers devolved on them? Let us forget about the old system where everything was set out in the Indian Act. In the old days, when some small change was to be made on the reserve, people had to contact the liaison officer in Ottawa to find out if it was allowed.
The magnificent eagle has been let out of its cage and now it can soar. It needs space to soar and that is what the bill and the agreement provide, including the way the Nisga'a institutions will be run and the way the Nisga'a public service will be paid.
The federal government will certainly be keeping a careful eye on things and will be prepared to give advice, but the people must be given the ability to govern themselves, and the Nisga'a government is going to establish precisely that ability.
There will also be legislative power. Since the agreement gives the Nisga'a full jurisdiction over culture and language, the Nisga'a government can be expected to introduce relevant legislation. This should come as no surprise.
But we must recognize that the Nisga'a have shown considerable openness in allowing non-natives a role in public institutions. We must also recognize that now they can, and must, fly on their own.
Nisga'a citizenship is perhaps the main stumbling block for the Bloc Quebecois. One has to understand the Nisga'a situation. Quebec's approach to citizenship is very inclusive. One must also understand that our territory and population are much larger than theirs.
There are approximately 2,500 Nisga'a on reserves and almost 2,500 elsewhere. Members must put themselves in the shoes of a Nisga'a who is wondering how he will be able to protect his origins.
There will be a code of citizenship, which will contain a Nisga'a citizenship law. This is where people say “Yes, but this is a racist law”. That is what some people are tempted to say. I have heard the Reform Party say that this is a racist law and an ethnic government because it is based on ancestry.
I would simply reply to the member who is using this argument that this is the way it has been for 100 years. I agree with the leader of the opposition that it has perhaps not been working well for 100 years, but we cannot just abolish the Indian Act and declare all citizens equal overnight.
I said it at the start of my speech and I will repeat it: the Bloc Quebecois cannot accept an egalitarian Canadian society. The Bloc Quebecois has always felt, with the members of the Parti Quebecois, that there were two founding peoples. If there were indeed two founding peoples, their rights must be recognized. If we are all equal, all drowned in the sea of equality, we no longer make this distinction.
This is how we come to understand the position of the Nisga'a. We have a critical mass of 7 million Quebecers, 80% of whom are francophones, so we can resist equalizing trends. But the Nisga'a may not be able to do so, as they number only about 5,000. Attempts at equalization must be resisted. In Quebec as in Canada, the people form a mosaic. People from different cultures add to the shared culture. I see this in the case of Quebec and in the case of Canada as well.
We must recognize that the native culture had and still has its own worth. If there is an attempt to equalize it, as the Liberal Party wanted to do in 1969 with its white paper, which said: the aboriginals must be assimilated, equalized, society would be pretty dull. It would be equal, but there would be no features or cultural characteristics to distinguish one group from another.
These distinctive features must be recognized and given expression. I think the bill, the agreement before us, contributes to that. It makes it possible to say to people “We recognize that you are different; you will develop, however, in a climate of negotiation with us in which we will come to an agreement, but you are different”.
I think Quebecers and the Nisga'a are proud of being different. That is why we can understand them. Clearly, the government would much prefer an all inclusive approach. That is what it wants to do in Quebec, but for reasons of critical mass and population size, I understand the Nisga'a have to do it this way. I understand things have been this way for 100 years, otherwise who would be Indian today and who could decide who is Indian? The Canadian constitution decides it to some extent, in section 35.
But then there are rules whereby an Indian Affairs registrar is responsible for determining who is and is not an Indian. Not everyone wishing to be determined an Indian can be. Unfortunately, that is how the law is, and the native people are the victims of this. They have been told for 100 years that, if they marry whites, their blood will be diluted and they will eventually no longer be aboriginal. That cannot be done away with overnight, otherwise the Nisga'a nation will eventually disappear.
I think that the people have taken the necessary steps to safeguard their culture, their language and their nation. This is why, even if there have been certain problems around defining citizenship, there will be agreement because we are sufficiently open-minded to acknowledge that they need this if they are to perpetuate the Nisga'a nation in future.
It must also be said that this is no disaster for the non-Nisga'a, as I have already said, for they are still entitled to own land within the territory. There are some one hundred non-Nisga'a on the land.
You are indicating to me that I have a minute left, Madam Speaker, so I will wrap up my remarks. I would have liked to have touched on marriage breakdown, because that is a concern introduced by the Reform Party. Perhaps there will be an opportunity to address this again later, but I would like to conclude by saying that we Quebecers are able to understand what the Nisga'a journey toward self-government is all about, because we are on the same journey. I want the Nisga'a to know we are going to be with them on their journey toward self-government because we in the Bloc Quebecois believe in it.
I will close with a translation into Nisga'a of “the Bloc Quebecois will walk alongside the Nisga'a on their journey” because they are listening to us and I know it will please them.