Mr. Speaker, I am glad we have figured out the order of debate.
There is probably no other subject that gets Canadians more animated than the subject of youth justice, and we are having another example of that today. There are days that the debate generates more heat than light, so in that context I would like to at least offer some statistical information with respect to charge rates.
In an international crime comparison, out of every 100,000 youth, Canada apparently charges about 7,900 with offences, and of that 7,900 it incarcerates 447. Interestingly enough, the United States for that same 100,000 youth only charges 5,000. Arguably, we have a much more charge based system than does the United States, that great bastion of law and order.
Interestingly, the custodial rate per 100,000 youth is 311 in the United States as opposed to 447 in Canada. Again, great ironies upon ironies. We think that we are the softer, gentler, sweeter nation, but we incarcerate youth at a greater rate than does the United States. By the way, those figures are exactly reversed when it comes to adult sentencing.
Hopefully that will go some way toward dispelling the myth that youth crime in this country is out of control, that we have a system that is soft, that mollycoddles these little children and that all they need is a good spanking and then they can be sent home. In fact, I would argue exactly the reverse. On statistics alone, we have a charge based system which probably needs to be examined. I think the entire system needs to be examined. I commend the minister for having the courage to put up this bill to create these issues.
The real fact of the matter is that youth based crime is on the decline. I know that may not be of great interest to editorial writers and writers of headlines, but it is true. Youth based crime is on the decline. It really has absolutely nothing to do with legislatures, parliaments and things of that nature. It is a demographic fact. We are simply producing fewer youth who will produce the crime. That is the good news.
The bad news is that there is another cohort on the way that will demographically and statistically start to produce more crime. These are virtual statistical facts. Again I commend the minister for at least, while we are having a downturn in the crime rate, dealing with this. We recognize that she has consulted widely and responded quite well, in my view, to the issues.
One of the problems that Canadians see with this issue is that we are soft on crime. If I had a dime for every time that phrase was repeated I would probably be able to retire and give up the apparently golden pension to which I am entitled, if I last for another election.
I direct members' attention to clause 6 of the bill, the presumptive offences. I make two notes with respect to the presumptive offences. The first five offences are first degree murder, second degree murder, the attempt to commit murder, manslaughter and aggregated sexual assault. The big change here is that instead of having these youth tried in adult court, where the lawyers get to argue whether they should be put up to adult court, the crown will now simply say “Your Honour, I am electing and my election at this point is that I am seeking an adult sentence for this person”. At the beginning of the trial that issue will be put to bed and the crown, the defence and the judge will get on with the trial and decide at the end of the trial if the conviction entitles this individual to an adult sentence.
The other interesting point is the sixth offence. This is not an offence to which adults are subject. I am sure it will create some interest and controversy at committee. It is called the serious violent offence. One can get an adult sentence for being convicted of a serious violent offence which may not be one of the first five offences.
A serious violent offence for which an adult could be sentenced to imprisonment for more than two years, which is committed by a young person, after clause 41 comes into force, for the person who committed the offence, at least two judicial determinations will be made under subclause 41(8), at different proceedings, that the young person had committed a serious violent offence. In other words, this is a bit of “open the door and put the kid away” because this person would be convicted at two separate judicial determinations as a youth who is, if I may use the vernacular, out of control.
I think the minister has responded in as effective a fashion as one could reasonably hope for in the context of our charter of rights and freedoms. It is a creative response to concerns of many Canadians that we are pretty soft on youth.
Fortunately the minister has not left it there. She has outlined the sentencing principles and purposes. The criminal code contains sentencing guidelines, allowing parliament to speak to sentencing judges, indicating the type of thinking that we want judges to apply to individuals convicted of particular offences. That kind of pattern is copied in clause 37 with a unique direction to the judges themselves. They are reminded that they are dealing with youth.
The purpose of sentencing under clause 41 is to contribute to the protection of society by holding a young person accountable for an offence through the imposition of just sanctions that have meaningful consequences and that promote his or her rehabilitation and reintegration into society.
There are four principles of sentencing articulated by parliament to sentencing judges: the protection of society, accountability, meaningful consequences, and the promotion of the individual's rehabilitation into society. That in turn will lead to different sentences from time to time which may be different than one would get as an adult.
The other area in which parliament is giving instruction to the judges in this matter is under clause 3. What the judges are being asked to consider, which is separate from other sentencing principles that they may apply to this particular instance, is what was the degree of participation of the young person in the commission of the offence. What was the harm done to the victims.
Members will note that we have made considerable efforts with the victims rights bill to include victims in the process so they have a meaningful role to play. This includes any reparation made by the young person to the victim or to the community, the time spent in detention by the young person as a result of the offence, and previous findings of guilt. I address members to the clause which concerns serious violent offences. It also includes any other aggravating and mitigating circumstances related to the young person and the offence which are relevant to the purpose and principles of this clause. These are the guidelines and principles which parliament is giving to the judiciary.
I look forward to this bill arriving in committee. I look forward to the examination of clause 6, as to whether it is appropriate. I look forward to the examination of clause 37, as to whether it is appropriate, and whether all of the principles have been covered.