Mr. Speaker, as you know, the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, of which I am a member, has just come back from touring British Columbia.
I will begin by saying that, when this decision was taken in committee—and it had been taken in the House earlier by the government House leader—I immediately accused the Liberals of doing the tango with the Reform Party. There are tangos that can be very graceful, with the two partners following each other's moves perfectly, and there are tangos that can be more difficult; it is, after all, a fairly complicated step. On this trip, the Reform-Liberal tango was a forced affair. The two partners found themselves forced to dance with one other and more than once stepped on each other's toes. It was, I think, a painful exercise.
We know what happened. Simply put, the Reform Party invited the Liberals to come along on this tour in British Columbia, and the Liberals had no choice but to agree. Otherwise the Minister of Finance would not have been able to put on his big economic show in London, Ontario.
The first tango was quite a challenge for both partners. There is another one in the works, which will be a far more graceful event, because the two partners are accustomed to each other. I will read part of the motion:
That, in the opinion of this House, the federal government should conduct a province wide referendum in British Columbia...prior to [—]
I must admit that Quebec is beginning to know something about referendums decided on by Ottawa. This is paternalism taken to the extreme. How can the federal government tell British Columbia that it is going to hold a referendum in this province?
The leader of the official opposition raises a good point in commenting that the Liberal government is in the process of cooking up all sorts of things relating to a future referendum in Quebec. We heard it last week, and we heard it again today. There is even talk of a motion or bill being introduced before the end of the week. I believe Quebec is capable of deciding its future for itself. Quebec does not need Ottawa to tell it how to proceed.
We are told that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is in the process of looking at the possibility of having the percentage be 60% rather than 50%. What next? It may say “Here is the question to be imposed on Quebecers” and so on.
The Reform Party and the Liberals make a lovely couple dancing to the tune of paternalism taken to the extreme. This country needs to accept the existence of people who are different. I will get back to that later.
As for the question of a constitutional amendment, opponents of the agreement, particular the ones on the Reform side, are saying that this is a constitutional amendment, that it will create another level of government and that consequently, since it will shape the future of British Columbia, a referendum must be held in order to ask all of the people of British Columbia to learn about the issue, take a position, and vote on it.
The problem, in my opinion, is that this is not a constitutional amendment, any more than it was one when the people of the Yukon accepted their land claims and self-government—and this was debated here. There was no referendum, either in Canada or in the Yukon, to find out if there was agreement on that.
Certainly, the aboriginal nations affected hold referendums. The Nisga'a held a referendum, but not the Yukon nations or the James Bay Cree. There was never a call in Quebec to vote or hold a referendum on the future of Quebec in relation to the treaty with the people of James Bay. I am speaking of before 1982, when we did not have the new Constitution. The James Bay treaty dates from 1975. For us, therefore, this is not a constitutional amendment.
Another thing has been raised by our opponents. They claim there was not enough consultation. I have here a few notes on the consultations held. In my opinion, the best consultations do not involve just statistics and reports of what went on. When one is a member of a touring delegation—I had to go, myself—there are many ways of listening to people. A person can just listen to the witnesses or take the opportunity, as well, at mealtime or after hearings, to go and speak with them.
I was not at all impressed by the Reform Party mobilizations in the five cities in British Columbia. A handful of people wanted to prevent witnesses from speaking and parliamentarians from deliberating.
I saw a few in Prince George, very few in Smithers. In Vancouver, there were a few more, because they made an effort. There were some 200 demonstrators outside. These people came in to disrupt the work of the committee for almost one hour on the last day, on the Friday. Unfortunately, this was not a popular initiative among the general public.
If these hearings had been televised in British Columbia, the Reform Party would have sunk to an all-time low. This is not the way to proceed. The way to proceed is to bring in witnesses— these people had the opportunity to send witnesses to the aboriginal affairs committee—and to let them testify. One does not gather people in a room to try to continually interrupt others, which is what went on all week.
I was not impressed, either by the size of the protest or the way these people tried to defend they views which, in my opinion, are undemocratic.
Let me now take a look at the consultation process. I have some figures here. Since 1991, federal and provincial negotiators have held 250 public consultation and information sessions in northwestern British Columbia. This is quite impressive. The forestry sector held close to 30 meetings, while the fisheries sector committee held 25. The Nass Valley Residence Association also organized meetings.
About 30 public information meetings, including open houses, fairs, presentations to school boards and chambers of commerce, were held throughout the region. The Kitimat-Skeena regional advisory committee, the Nass Valley Residents Association and the Treaty Negotiations Advisory Committee expressed their views to negotiators.
Over 50 consultation meetings took place during the negotiations on the Nisga'a final agreement. Also, the provincial legislature's standing committee on aboriginal affairs held hearings in a number of British Columbia communities. In addition, our own committee held a week of public hearings there. I would remind the House that again this week another thirty or forty people will appear either in person or via videoconferencing.
Furthermore, as I have already said, the British Columbia legislature debated for some 120 hours. This is the longest debate that has ever been held in the history of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. So we do not want to hear it said that they are calling for a referendum because they want to consult people. I did consult the people, in the various restaurants and other places we visited in British Columbia, both in the north and in the south of the province. Those people seemed fairly satisfied, and we have proof of that.
As a former union member myself, I can tell the House that, on the last day, representatives of Treasury Board and of unions came to the table to tell us that they had consulted their membership. When unions use the word consult, that means a lot: consultations at the local, regional and provincial levels, usually. CLC President Ken Georgetti told us “We debated the issue, and there was far from unanimity. A number of points did not get past our membership very smoothly, but there has been consultation and there is union agreement on this”.
What struck me even more, however, was that many representatives of the economic community and the Vancouver chamber of commerce came to tell us that they had no problem with that, because it would finally resolve the whole issue of uncertainty.
In a few minutes, I will talk to you of the problem of uncertainty, because it is another tactic our adversaries use to say things will be terrible, that it will be the end of the world for British Columbia. I even heard it being likened to Bosnia and Chechnya a few minutes ago.
I do not agree with that. I had given as an example the WTO negotiations, which are to begin this month, and our disputes with our major economic trading partner, the United States. It is usual to have disputes with people, but they are resolved through negotiation.
So, making statements that it will be like the cases of Bosnia and Chechnya is like saying the Americans will drop an atomic bomb on Canada if they are not satisfied with the WTO agreement. I do not think the discussions should be viewed this way. It is not through litigation or confrontation but rather through negotiation and consultation that this is achieved. And that is what has been done, in my view.
Our opponents keep telling us—and I heard them again this morning—the importance of equality, the great importance of equality. For them, it is pretty simple: everyone should be equal.
I said that at second reading and I repeat it. Quebecers will not agree to being equal to other Canadians. I have showed a schema to a number of witnesses and they agreed. In fact, they said that was the way it is, and I think we have come to an agreement.
How can I go about taking apart the whole argument of equality and uncertainty? I would first like to explain something to the Reformers. We have to start with the question “Do they recognize for the aboriginal peoples?” Do they recognize that there are aboriginal peoples and nations?
We in Quebec have already introduced a motion in the National Assembly to recognize the 11 first nations. But once the first nations are not recognized, because this is what the Reformers are calling for, once the distinct character of Quebec is not recognized, because according to the Reform Party, Prince Edward Island has the same power in Canada as Quebec and Ontario do, then we have many reservations.
Obviously, there is not agreement on complete equality, and once that is the case, the same thing happens that is happening with the Reformers: there is an attempt to frighten people, to tell them that some people have specific rights, but that they do not. We are all too familiar with this scenario.
I for one agree with recognizing aboriginal peoples, just as I would agree that Quebecers represent a distinct nation. Unfortunately, there are not many people in the House who are prepared to allow Quebec that recognition; not even among the Quebec members.
What happens if someone like myself or my party recognizes aboriginal peoples? Automatically, not everyone is equal. They have specific rights. We are seeing quite a few such rights being imposed. The courts themselves are imposing them.
The other day, when we debated the motion on Atlantic fisheries in relation to the Marshall ruling, I listed all the cases that we are losing one after the other. Calder, Sparrow, Delgamuukw are all supreme court rulings that support aboriginals and thus give them specific rights. Today, we as legislators have the opportunity to grant specific rights, and we will do so if we adopt the treaty that is now before us.
If we give specific rights to aboriginals and recognize them as peoples and nations, then we must agree with them on some kind of partnership agreement, and the Nisga'a treaty is a perfect example of such an agreement. It sets out powers and determines which are Canada's and which will be the Nisga'as'.
We must put this in an agreement if we want to reconcile everybody's interests and ensure that we will not get all tangled up in laws that contradict one another.
Jurisdictions over areas such as culture or language are often delegated. In this case, we will even have a Nisga'a government and a constitution that will include provisions on citizenship.
There is no doubt that the agreement goes very far. But I remind all those who are listening to us that other agreements have also gone quite far. Negotiations on self-government and Yukon land claims went very, very far. The agreement obviously goes beyond a private citizen joining with the Canadian nation, because this person already has every power. Here we agree to give these people partial powers and to see how it can all be reconciled.
By negotiating a partnership between two nations, between Canadians and the Nisga'a, certainty has been created. The final argument of our opponents has been done away with, that being that supposedly terrible uncertainty will result.
The treaty contains everything relating to natural resources, forestry and fishing. Everything. According to the witnesses I heard, including the biologists, there is no problem because a percentage is given for fisheries. In a given area, the Nisga'a may have 26% of the take, but that 26% is not a set figure. If the fishery resources decrease, it will be 26% of the take at that time. The figure for the next year could be different. It could be more, or it could be less, but it is always 26%.
It seems to me that we have found the way to negotiate between one nation and another, saying “This is the way we will go about things together”.
It is important for me to give this explanation, because I have heard all kinds of things said. In my opinion, overall the witnesses were in favour of the agreement. Some came to tell us that they were not, and why not, but I feel that their opposing arguments did not take them far.
As far as this being a constitutional amendment is concerned, I say it is not. As for saying that equality must come first, come what may, I do not agree with that as a Quebecer and I know the Nisga'a do not agree either. As far as creating uncertainty is concerned, I do not agree because the treaty defines with certainty all areas of jurisdiction it has been agreed to hand over to the aboriginal people.
We will not change opinion on the Nisga'a. We have told them we will walk with them. The translation into Nisga'a of “We will walk with the Nisga'a” is:
[Editor's Note: Member spoke in Nisga'a]
We have not changed our viewpoint. We have heard the opinions of certain nations, such as the Gitanyow or the Gitksan. It was in fact the Bloc that offered to mediate to see whether agreement was possible. We are currently looking at various formulae with the Nisga'a as well, but we support the entire matter and the action.
As I was saying at the start of my speech, the Reform motion is outrageously paternalistic. We cannot agree with it. They cannot say to the Nisga'a, 61% of whom accepted the agreement “Now that that's all done, we will water it down in a massive referendum.”
People have raised the issue of the majority imposing it on the minority, but there is also the fact that the work was well done. When they talk about nation to nation, there are representatives in parliament. There are representatives in this parliament and there are representatives of the people in the British Columbia legislature. I think these people have done a good job.
We must also bear in mind that 50 more agreements are yet to be negotiated, and it is not true to say the Nisga'a agreement will create a precedent. There may well be passages other nations will pick up, but my experience as critic for aboriginal affairs tells me that there are about as many agreements on self-government as there are nations, because each nation has its point of view.
Many people condemned the whole issue of taxation, because the Nisga'a will waive the tax exemption to which they are entitled. They will start paying taxes in 8 or 12 years.
Many nations told us “We would not have accepted that”. Some might say this is a terrible precedent but, in my opinion, that precedent is no worse than what the Yukon nations or the Cree have negotiated. If we must hold a referendum each time a self-government agreement is concluded with a nation, the process will never end.
For these reasons, the Bloc Quebecois will oppose the Reform Party motion, and I tell my Nisga'a friends who are listening, including Joe Gosnell, Harry Nice and Eric Grandison that we will certainly see each other again this week to try to see how we can work out the final details. They can rest assured that the Bloc Quebecois and myself will vote against the Reform Party's motion.