The bill amends the Canada Shipping Act. Its purpose is to prevent the accidental introduction of living organisms that are not natural to Canada into Canadian waters by the discharge of ship ballast water.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

The House resumed from November 29 consideration of the motion that Bill C-5, an act to establish the Canadian Tourism Commission, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

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3:25 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc Mercier, QC

Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak to Bill C-5, an act to establish the Canadian Tourism Commission, and I want to do so because, unfortunately, we are once again looking at a bill that is a shocking example of duplication. The purpose of the bill is to enhance federal visibility in a sector that clearly falls within Quebec's jurisdiction. It is a sector of Quebec that is extremely well organized and that is working well, because the stakeholders work together.

What does the bill accomplish? It establishes a Canadian Tourism Commission.

As the bill clearly states, this Canadian Tourism Commission is a corporation. And what is it being established to do? What are its objects? The bill states, and I quote: a ) sustain a vibrant and profitable Canadian tourism industry;

I would point out that this initial objective is a complete mystery to me. Since when is it the business of a crown corporation to “sustain a vibrant and profitable” industry? Enough has been said in this House and elsewhere that it should be clear that private businesses, whatever their size, will, through their own efforts, find a way to become vibrant and profitable.

The government's role is to support them through measures that are not specific to any one industry, but that apply generally to all industries, as does the Small Business Loans Act, or Technology Partnerships Canada, in the case of federal measures. There are many other measures that are available in the provinces and in Quebec to support investment and help identify markets.

I wonder why our colleagues on this side, to the right, that is the members of the Reform Party, are not surprised that the first object of the commission, as a crown corporation, is to sustain “a vibrant and profitable Canadian tourism industry”. Except for that first one, all the other objects, and I will read them, are already covered by Quebec law. And if there are similar laws in the other provinces, these objects must also be included in them. What are the other objects? They read, and I quote: b ) market Canada as a desirable tourist destination;

It goes without saying that the Quebec law says “market Quebec as a desirable tourist destination”. Quebec is indeed a desirable tourist destination. What is the next object? It reads, and I quote: c ) support a cooperative relationship between the private sector and the governments of Canada, the provinces and the territories with respect to Canadian tourism;

To co-operate is also an important object of Tourisme Québec, which is in a position to do so.

Finally, the last object reads, and I quote: d ) provide information about Canadian tourism—

In Quebec, it is information about Quebec tourism.

—to the private sector and to the governments of Canada, the provinces and the territories.

In reading this, we must ask ourselves the question: What is the mandate of Tourisme Québec? Its mandate is:

—to guide and co-ordinate public and private initiatives regarding tourism; to develop a knowledge of tourism products and of tourists; to support the improvement and development of Quebec's tourist supply; to organize and support the promotion of Quebec and of its tourism products on the various markets; to inform clients on tourism products in Quebec; to build and operate public facilities for tourism.

As we can see, Tourisme Québec has a broader mandate, but it includes all the mandates given to that corporation, which would be known as the Canadian Tourism Commission. Frankly, why is the government getting involved in this area?

Of course, the government is saying that there was already a commission, but it did not have the same status. It is not for nothing that the government is suddenly transforming it into a crown corporation, with its own legislation, that will report to the Minister of Industry.

When I look at this bill, I have to wonder: Why is the government again bringing us such duplication? How will it co-ordinate on a Canada-wide basis what is already extremely well co-ordinated within Quebec? Why is it bent on having a Canadian Tourism Commission?

I read the preamble and I think I have it figured out. This will come as a surprise. This is the Canadian Tourism Commission we are talking about. The preamble starts out as follows:

Whereas the Canadian tourism industry is vital to the social and cultural identity and integrity of Canada;

Frankly, I nearly fell off my chair. I will read it again “the Canadian tourism industry is vital to the [—] identity”.

There will be identity problems if the government pushes ahead with its plans for a Canadian Tourism Commission. It does not trust Quebec, Alberta or British Columbia to look after their own tourist industry. Programs need to be co-ordinated in order to make the most of the funds available. That is fine. We know, however, that there are tourism targets for each of the provinces. Each has its interests and its own attractions. But now we hear that “the Canadian tourism industry is vital to the social and cultural identity and integrity of Canada”. Frankly, it take's one's breath away.

This is beginning to make less and less sense. I have read several reports of a task force set up by the former Clerk of the Privy Council to prepare Canada for 2005, and several references are made to Canadians' serious identity problem. I saw it mentioned more than once.

For Quebecers, it was both disturbing and surprising to read, page after page, how much the Canadian identity would be threatened by the fact that our economic links would be more on a north-south axis, by the fact that a vast majority of Canadians would watch American television programs, and so on and so forth.

But I think it is going much too far to perceive the problem as so serious that the Canadian tourist industry should be considered an essential component of that identity. This kind of exaggeration baffles the mind.

Concerning this first part of the preamble, it is easy to understand that Tourisme Québec does not want to give rise to identity squabbles, but simply sell a distinctive tourist destination. Tourisme Québec is banking on Quebec's difference.

We are proud of Quebec City, which was founded in 1608 by Champlain and is the national capital of Quebecers. We are proud of our past. And we encourage tourists to come and visit us in Quebec.

Are we to understand that, from now on, Quebec's invitation to tourists should be sent via Ottawa, and that we should invite them to come and visit “la belle province”? Is that the basic tenet?

It cannot be, because Canada does not have the means to stop Quebec from selling its own tourist attractions. But one thing is for sure: this will create a great deal of confusion. Instead of ensuring better co-ordination, the bill will be confusing for many businesses that work perfectly well with Tourisme Québec. They will not know who to turn to.

Far from improving the opportunities for Quebec's tourist industry, which is a very major one, the bill could prevent this from happening and could even be harmful to the industry.

I cannot leave the first paragraph of the preamble without adding, at the very least, that it is extremely irritating and annoying to see how on the merest details—not to mention basic rights—concerning tourism, we must once again wage a battle to make the government understand that we can take care of this on our own in Quebec.

Of course, we can discuss with the other provinces, but this is not the issue here. When a national commission, a big crown corporation, with a budget we do not even talk about, is given the same powers as Tourisme Québec, this can only be called duplication.

The bill states also that the Canadian tourism industry makes an essential contribution to the economic well-being of Canadians; this is also true for Quebec. And we believe that the better we are organized in Quebec, the better Tourisme Québec can fulfil its mandate, and that the more the federal government gives to the provinces in terms of adequate transfers, the more we will be able to develop our tourism industry.

Does this mean that the federal government would use its large surpluses to give to the Canadian tourism commission funds that would otherwise not go to the provinces, to Quebec? If that is the case, this is utterly shameful. The federal government is misusing its spending power, and this means that all the structures we set up, which are begining to work well, all the preparation, all the consensus building could be bypassed or, as I have already said, duplicated by the Canadian tourism commission.

I remind the House that there are regional tourist associations and that each one must produce a plan. This system works. There are discussions in each region. Not everybody agrees on priorities, but that is to be expected, because that is what consensus building is all about. People make concessions to reach a consensus. It is a remarkable effort.

The last part of the preamble states:

Whereas it is desirable to strengthen Canada's commitment to Canadian tourism by establishing a Tourism Commission that would work with the governments of the provinces and the territories—

Work how?

—to promote the interests—

Through this centralized agency.

The Bloc Quebecois strongly opposes the bill because it will create duplication and is useless. It even borders on the counterproductive, because duplication is counterproductive.

It is always better to have clear priorities. It is always better to have one strategy than two. This is true for economic development. Not a single company could survive with two strategies. An industry, tourism in particular, must have one strategy and only one.

We are morally tired—I think that is the most accurate way I can put it this afternoon—of the constant desire of the government to encroach, to centralize, to bandy “Canada, Canada, Canada, Canada, Canada” about everywhere, and of reading that Canada's tourism industry is essential to Canada's identity.

I am tired, as a Quebecer and at the age I have reached, of hearing, day in and day out in the House, especially on days like this one, that this country clearly has no time for the people of Quebec, who are proud to be a people and who want to get themselves organized. There is no room for them either.

We are in the throes of a full constitutional debate revived by the Prime Minister. He says he wants to get on with other things, but he has revived the constitutional debate. The truth is we think they want to stick us in a corner and stamp the word Canada on us. They would tolerate La Belle Province.

In the meantime, a people is in the process of being forged, forged in adversity. It is an independent, a distinct and proud people increasingly capable of achievement and increasingly aware that Canada is a yoke they want to put on it.

Of course, not everyone speaks of this all the time in the buses and the metro, but one cannot stretch the elastic too for before it flies back into the face of the person holding it.

I will conclude. I think I have said the main things I wanted to say. This bill is an example of what must not be done. If the government really wants to have it for the other nine provinces, let it include the right to opt out. If there is money, it should be left to Quebec. But the government must stop trying to force us into a model we do not want, when we have one that works.

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3:45 p.m.

Scarborough Centre Ontario

Liberal

John Cannis LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Industry

Mr. Speaker, I have a quick comment to make. All I heard from the hon. member, aside from of course stating separatist aspirations, was forcing, forcing, forcing. Nobody has forced anybody into this wonderful arrangement upon which we are embarking. All the stakeholders came together, Quebec included, and their representatives.

The member talked about duplication. It is not a matter of creating something. This was already there. We are simply fine tuning it to crown corporation status, which is basically what all the stakeholders asked, including Quebec, which is granted a seat on the board, as are all other representatives, so that collectively we can market not only the beautiful province of Quebec but the entire country.

There is no duplication. The system already exists. We simply want to work much closer with our provincial partners, who will have the opportunity to promote and enhance the tourism industry.

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3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc Mercier, QC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague knows full well that I know there is a commission. I mentioned it in my speech.

What I am emphasizing is that there is a good reason for making changes to it. All the mandates given to the commission—and he should be sensitive to this—apart from the first, which is unacceptable for a crown agency, are mandates already being carried out by Tourisme Québec.

The first thing the commission is mandated to do is to sustain a vibrant and profitable Canadian tourism industry. Come on. Support the industry, yes, do as Quebec has and do blanket publicity for the whole group, but not ensure that they are profitable. That has never been the mandate of any crown agency.

As for the other mandates, they are the jurisdiction of Tourisme Québec. I can do no more than repeat what I have already said, which he does not accept. I would have liked to hear his comments on the preamble.

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3:50 p.m.

Reform

John Duncan Reform Vancouver Island North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I notice from the intervention by the parliamentary secretary that the government at times can interpret acquiescence to mean agreement, because by using federal government spending power it is buying something.

The member for Mercier talked about duplication of effort and abuse of federal spending power. I would like her to elaborate on how this is an abuse of federal spending power. I am sure she has a couple of examples to elucidate that.

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3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc Mercier, QC

Mr. Speaker, what I said is that, if the government makes use of this commission to invest money that would not be used elsewhere, everything they want to do with this commission, everything in its mandate, is already being done in Quebec, where tourism is organized around a collaborative effort. What is lacking, as it is in the fields of education and health, is money.

If a commission is established and money is put into it, this is going to derail the process. That is what I have said.

In my opinion, this is abusive, because this is an area that must prosper. The economy is involved, deeply involved. Tourism is a $5.4 billion industry in Quebec, far from negligible. It ranks sixth in terms of exports, and is therefore an important industry.

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3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thought you were boycotting me. I was getting scared; I was surprised because this is not a habit of yours.

I have a two tiered question for my hon. colleague, our critic for foreign affairs, something it is important to remind the House of.

I know she does some excellent work and has to represent Quebec and the sovereignist movement all over the world. She has had the opportunity on several occasions to visit embassies abroad, where there are often offices of the Canadian tourism commission.

I would like her to tell us a little about how she sees things. When she visited these offices, what was the image of Quebec shown abroad?

Not too long ago, I was the critic for international trade, I also had the privilege to visit these offices. Canada is a big country and when one tries to promote tourism for almost all the provinces, some of them are left aside, and it happened quite often that I saw little or no information about Quebec.

I would also like to make another comment. By trying to repatriate everything to the federal level—I have seen this in different English provinces—does the federal government not give quite clearly the impression that provincial jurisdictions are second class jurisdictions, that it is the one who has to do the real work and leave minor details and trivia to local authorities, which are expected to carry out the orders taken by the superior minds, as they see it, in the central government?

All the government's bills smack of its smug attitude toward all institutions. As the hon. member for Mercier said quite clearly, in Quebec, there is another example of a principle that works. Tourisme Québec has been around for a very long time. It has developed through regional divisions, and this is working. I would like to hear the hon. member on these two issues.

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3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc Mercier, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will answer the second question first.

I agree with the member and this will not come as a surprise to him. The impression we glean from what was said over and over again in this place is that the federal government always does everything better. It is said to be the government of all the provinces for some reason or other; perhaps because it is bigger. This would apparently make it the real government. That is contrary to a federal system that is truly based on the participation of all of its components, which are each the best at what they do.

When a federation starts thinking that the central government is the only one able to do everything, it is on the verge of shifting from being a federation to having a central government with the others becoming regional governments. This reflects more closely what I am seeing take shape in Canada: a large central government with regions. We can even think that this might be the fate of the Canadian federation if Quebec were to become an associated partner.

As far as the first question is concerned, my colleague has been involved in international trade issues longer than I have. I only visited very briefly a few embassies, but each time, I make sure to monitor closely how products from Quebec are faring.

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3:55 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Greg Thompson Progressive Conservative Charlotte, NB

Mr. Speaker, the bill we are debating concerns the Canadian Tourism Commission. It will change the legal status of the Canadian Tourism Commission from that of a special operating agency to that of a crown corporation.

The words “crown corporation” raise the anxiety level in the House when heard by some, because from time to time we have taken a close look at some crown corporations. We have put them under close scrutiny because of their lack of management skills. Canada Post comes to mind.

Some argue that if we are ever to get Canada Post moving into the 21st century we will have to make it a private entity which will no longer operate under legislation concerning crown corporations.

Obviously the member was here during the Air Canada debate when it was changed from a crown agency, put on the market and bought by shareholders. As well, Petro-Canada was a crown agency which was privatized.

Information we have received from our researchers tells us that in 1997-98 the Canadian Tourism Commission spent $146 million. Of that, $63 million came from the federal government and $83 million from private sector partners. Most of the budget was spent on marketing, with smaller amounts being spent on administration, research and product development.

The government is arguing, not the commission, that the commission does not have enough autonomy. When we are talking about autonomy, we are actually talking about the decision to chart its own destiny or set its own course. However, there is nothing in the bill that would lead me to believe that there will be more autonomy.

This commission will be structured like a crown corporation and will be at arm's length from the government. However, knowing the government, we will probably be standing in this place in the near future talking about the privatization of this very agency once the private sector gets to examine this so-called autonomy.

The commission will be set up in such a way that the chairperson will be appointed by who? Will it be by private sector interests? No. The governor in council, meaning the Prime Minister of Canada, will pick the chairperson of the commission. What does that tell us about autonomy? He or she will be under the callous hands of the Prime Minister within six months.

The president of this new organization, believe it or not, will be appointed by, who else? The Prime Minister of Canada, the governor in council. There is not much distance between the new president, the new chairperson and the Prime Minister and the cabinet. It goes back to my opening comments in terms of autonomy. I cannot see much autonomy there.

Let us further read the bill. The question I would ask is whether anyone in the House has read the bill. I mention that because today during petitions at least two NDP members, God bless their souls, presented petitions with regard to the Senate. I do not agree entirely with their position on the Senate but they are talking about an organization that is appointed by the Prime Minister of Canada. Talk about accountability. I know what the Bloc members are saying about the bill, but I think the bill requires close scrutiny. I hope the NDP members take a look at clause 9 on page 3 of the bill.

We have gone from the chairperson to the president. What else happens in any kind of a commission? The next logical jump would be to the directors, would it not? Where would the directors come from? I know we do not dare to say it out loud, but they are appointed by the minister with the approval of the Prime Minister. Talk about autonomy. Does anyone see any autonomy in the bill, any distance from the Prime Minister's office? For the love of me, I cannot.

My argument is that one of the reasons the government wants to move it out of the department is because the department comes under the purview of the Public Service Administration Act. In other words, we have civil servants who are not quite as easy to push around as appointed folks. When push comes to shove, who will the commission be listening to or taking directions from? I suggest it will be the Prime Minister of Canada and his cabinet.

This is not the first bill to come to the House in the last couple of weeks, which leads me to believe that we are heading for an election probably sooner than later. The other bill that is before us is the Canadian institutes of health research. It is the same situation from the president on down. All the members of the advisory board are appointed by, who else? The old Prime Minister of Canada himself. Sir John A. Macdonald would roll over in his grave if he knew that.

Have we not moved somewhere beyond the point where every member of a commission or a board is appointed by one man and by one man only? That is the argument the NDP uses with regard to the senate. It is somewhat the same argument that the Reformers use with regard to the Senate. We are not all fundamentally opposed to the Senate. Most of us would like to reform the Senate, but the Canadian people should have a choice. However, surely there has to be a better way of doing it than this.

This ain't all, as they would say back home. These appointments are all by pleasure. Mr. Speaker, do you know what pleasure means? It means that when the Prime Minister wakes up in the morning and decides he still likes you, then you are still there. If he gets out on the wrong side of the bed, then you are gone. You are history. There is no autonomy in that. There is no arm's length from government in that type of institution. We see it over there on the back benches of the Liberal party. The Prime Minister says “jump” and the members say “how high”, or the Prime Minister says “don't come down until I tell you to”. That is exactly what will happen with this board, and I do not like it.

Let us take a look at their remuneration. We always start at the top with the president and then work down through. The president will be paid the remuneration that the governor in council may fix. The Prime Minister of Canada will determine what this person makes. Not only that, he will determine how long he or she will collect his or her paycheque. The chairperson and the private sector directors, other than the president, shall be paid the fees that the governor in council may fix. It is the same thing. Governor in council is a fancy word for the Prime Minister of Canada. It is basically the Prime Minister and cabinet making a decision, but it is one man.

Witness the debate that is raging now in the House between the Prime Minister and the premier of Quebec on the 50 plus one and his stance in regard to any constitutional initiative on Quebec and the referendum. That is a one man decision. It is a one man band leading the way down through the town with not too many followers even from his own cabinet, which is sort of a suicidal march.

I know I am getting off the topic, but there has to be a better way to do this. We are moving into the new millennium. We are moving into the 21st century and we are still using the outdated institutions of the past to proceed into a new century. If we are talking about reform in the House, it could start right here when we are debating bills like this.

I mentioned earlier the CIHR. It sounds like the call numbers or letters of a radio station.

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4:05 p.m.

An hon. member

Country music.

Canadian Tourism Commission ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Greg Thompson Progressive Conservative Charlotte, NB

Country music, but this is a really sad country song. It will bring tears to our eyes.

The Canadian institutes of health research is supposed to be modelled after the American example. The minister and his people are taking credit for redesigning the wheel, but this is basically a model that they picked up in the U.S. They brought it in, wrapped their arms around it and called it their own. Obviously they did not invent this new institute. What they have invented, and I brought this out yesterday in committee, is the structure. In the United States, the public and members of the legislative bodies, senators and members of the House of Representatives, have some input into who goes on those boards or institutes. In Canada, the Minister of Health introduced a bill a week ago today, Bill C-13, structured in the same fashion as the bill we are talking about today.

Nobody argues that we have to pay attention to tourism in the country. It is a big generator of jobs. What scares many of us in the House is that the government is going to politicize the very commission that is asking for more autonomy, if we can believe what the government is saying.

I do not think there will be any autonomy or any arm's length relationship from government. I think we will have the strong hand of the Government of Canada, the Prime Minister of Canada, over this commission. This bill has serious flaws that have to be addressed either in the House or in committee.

It is hard to run in the face of motherhood. This is sort of like a motherhood bill. This is what the government is talking about. It is all good in the eyes of the government. There is nothing negative here. This is a good news bill.

Let me go through some of the points that we might argue are good news. The commission may establish a head office anywhere in Canada. That is fine, but what about Chicoutimi as a head office? What would be the chances of Chicoutimi being the head office of this new commission? I am just thinking out loud, but being in the Prime Minister's hometown I think it would have a pretty good kick at the can.

The commission may not finance, acquire or construct facilities related to tourism. That is a good point. In other words, it will not be able to turn the Prime Minister's summer home into a hotel. That is good news, unless the Minister for Human Resources Development Canada gets her hands on the application. Maybe then it can do that. Anything is possible in the Prime Minister's riding.

The commission may enter into agreements with other governments. That is fine. It may create new corporations as a result of these agreements. So it does not end here. There must be a hidden clause in there that even I might have missed under close scrutiny. It may create new corporations as a result of those agreements as long as they are consistent with its mandate and do not involve financing or construction of tourism facilities.

The commission's annual corporate plan will be approved by the ministers of industry and the treasury board. That is good.

I hope there is a mechanism in here, which I did not see in the bill, where the commission has to actually come before the House and the auditor general for scrutiny. I hope there is a provision in the bill where it does have to table a report annually on the floor of the House of Commons. I do not see it in there, but I will ask my colleagues in the NDP, the Bloc, the Reform and the Conservative Parties to search through the bill while I am on my feet. I did not see that.

The board of directors will continue to have up to 26 representatives. Goodness gracious, that is almost a quarter of the appointments that the Prime Minister gets to make in the Senate. Imagine, 26 new appointments. On the eve of an election, it sounds good does it not, Mr. Speaker? I would not be surprised if you were appointed to that board.

In addition to that, we have the chairperson and the president and up to 16 private sector directors in six regions. I did go through how that is going to be apportioned, and I think some members have a problem with that, as I guess they should. These will be appointed, as I mentioned before, by the minister on the advice of the board or the committee. There will be one director representing the provincial governments in each of the six regions. The president, the chair and the directors will all serve at pleasure. That means as long as the Prime Minister of Canada is happy.

We have witnessed what has happened in some government departments and agencies when the Prime Minister and a particular minister are not happy with them. I am not talking about not doing their jobs or not showing up for the job. I am talking about civil servants, some of them senior civil servants, who just happen to disagree with the government. The Prime Minister has taken the baseball bat to their kneecaps on occasion simply to get rid of them.

I am not exaggerating. I have mentioned names in the House of individuals who have had longstanding, long ongoing battles with the government. In fact, some of them have taken it to the Human Rights Commission and won their cases. These are people who are protected by the Civil Service Act. This new commission, no protection.

I think this new commission is ripe for political manipulation. I think the House deserves closer scrutiny and more debate on the bill. I do not think it is a bill that can simply be rammed through the House. I call on every member in the House to read this bill clause by clause and stand up on their hind legs and argue for a new and better way of doing this.

I think the bill deserves more scrutiny than what it is getting. I do not think we can simply give the government a blank cheque based on its performance with commissions and boards like this in the past. Let us intelligently debate this in committee, bring forth some amendments which the government might consider and improve this bill before we get to third and final reading.

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4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to commend my hon. colleague for his speech.

When we talk about tourism, there is one very important thing that we have to keep in mind, which is the fact that there are several different regions in this vast country of Canada as well as in Quebec, and there is a competitive element involved. A number of regions are increasingly trying to attract more tourists. These regions are not all the same.

Now that the federal government wants to gain control of tourism, it could very easily end up discriminating in favour of some regions and against others.

I would like to know what my hon. colleague thinks about the possibility that the federal government might do what it did in terms of regional development and discriminate in favour of one region and against another, as has too often been the case in Quebec. What does the hon. member think about a government, which has often chosen to promote some regions and ignore others, getting involved in tourism?

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4:15 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Greg Thompson Progressive Conservative Charlotte, NB

Mr. Speaker, that just shows that great minds think alike. I think the hon. member's point is worth noting. That is in fact what can happen because they can politicize this commission. We must think about that, 103 members of parliament in Ontario alone. One has to win the province of Ontario to form the government in this country.

This may be stretching it, but can we not envision the Prime Minister looking at political opportunity and using this commission to his best advantage in terms of where to put the advertising dollars and what portions of the country to promote. Obviously, there is not support in every province.

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4:15 p.m.

Liberal

George Proud Liberal Hillsborough, PE

I have heard.