Madam Speaker, I quite enjoyed the previous speaker's remarks. I have had the opportunity to examine the debate on this legislation. Generally speaking despite the complaints that closure is forthcoming, the debate has been of a fairly high order.
I particularly congratulate the Reform Party because it is touching some genuine nerves of concern. One of the concerns in this whole concept of transfers from the federal government to the provinces is that of giving money to the provinces with no strings attached.
The equalization program involves $8.6 billion being transferred to various provinces. When that is added to the Canada health and social transfer annual payments of some $12.6 billion, the total is $20 billion being transferred to the provinces by the federal government.
The difficulty I have is that traditionally the federal government has so respected provincial rights that it has not demanded any real transparency or accountability from the provinces in terms of how this money is spent. The idea is that both transfers are a provincial tax subsidy. They lower the taxes a province is required to charge in order to provide the same standard of social and health services that might be found across the country. The whole idea is, as we recognize in the Constitution, that the provinces have the right and the privilege to provide for the basic care of their citizens. There is controversy now that suggests the federal government should not be involved in any issues pertaining to setting standards or ensuring the type of programs have at least a reasonable quality all across the country.
When we come to the origin of this equalization program, it is to give some sense that no matter where Canadians are in the country they have the same opportunities to a minimum level of programs. This is so we are not in a situation where people in Newfoundland are at an enormous disadvantage in the types of social services provided to them when compared to people in Ontario.
We have a very peculiar situation. On the one hand we are asked to give the transfers because we want to see national standards, and on the other hand the instruments of transparency and accountability are not there. We cannot be absolutely certain that any of the provinces is using this money for the purpose intended. It is the same for the Canada health and social transfer. It is in the end simply a subsidy to the provincial taxes so the provinces will not have to raise them as high as they might ordinarily have had to and they will not have to take the flak. The whole idea is that the federal government is there for the provinces to blame for high taxes. We see this theme coming from the Reform Party all the time.
The member for Portneuf who is here for this part of the debate made the observation that Quebec is owed the money. I found that quite amusing. He basically said “Quebec is owed the money. Give us the money and keep giving us the money until we declare sovereignty”. And that would be the end to that.
I say to the member for Portneuf that Quebec would probably not be a have not province if it were not for the fact that Quebec governments over the last 20 years successively and even to a certain extent the Liberal governments have pursued an agenda of nationalism that has dampened investment in Quebec, particularly in the Montreal region. Montreal was the engine of the economy. At one time Montreal was a rival to Toronto. Since this whole thing about sovereignty really took root in Quebec there has been a flight of investment. It is not just a lack of investment, there has been a flight of investment. It is no wonder that the province of Quebec wishes to continue to receive its share of equalization programs and its share of the Canada health and social transfer.
Earlier the member from St. John's said that equalization transfers should continue to come to Newfoundland even if Newfoundland develops new resource wealth. It should continue to get 100% equalization transfers even if it enlarges its tax base as a result of the development of Voisey's Bay, Hibernia and other projects in Newfoundland.
This is the same type of difficulty as what that member was asking. He said give us our tax subsidy no matter what our resource income is. Give it to us because we would prefer that the federal government be blamed for charging high taxes than the provinces. In some respects, certainly in the sense of the Canada health and social transfer, this is precisely what we hear in my own province of Ontario.
In a way we may be looking at this equalization program in the form we see it for the last time. The whole of society is now moving to a position where Canadians in every province are asking their governments to provide a high level of transparency and accountability so that the people of those provinces can see that the money is being spent wisely and well.
The reason this is very significant is in the context of the recent social union talks, ten premiers signed a letter with respect to how health spending would be undertaken. The key element of those negotiations was the principle that if the provinces were to receive money for social and health programs from the federal government the provinces should be in control of the programs. But the provinces had to undertake to put in instruments of transparency and accountability so that all Canadians, including Canadians in those provinces, could see that the money regardless of where it is coming from is spent on the programs it is intended for.
I see one of the members of the Bloc Quebecois shaking his head. I point out that the province of Quebec is to be one of the provinces best able to meet this requirement because that province happens to have one of the best freedom of information acts of any province. There is no reason why the member should shake his head because it is precisely the type of program he should support. If I had my way I would like to see the federal government adopt some of the provisions that exist in Quebec with respect to privacy and access to information.
There is no reason why Quebec or any other province should be opposed to better transparency in the application of equalization payments. If we are to transfer $8.6 billion a year or $12.6 billion, a sum total of $20 billion, I agree with my Reform members opposite that we should be calling for better levels of transparency. Perhaps it is a little premature right now because this legislation has to go forward in order to get the money in train.
This bill is not cast in iron. There are opportunities two or three years from now to look at it again and to make amendments that require better levels of transparency and accountability. All of us on all sides of the House and speaking for all Canadians would agree that is what is required.