Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to clarify the exchange between the minister of Indian affairs and myself during question period on October 28, 1998.
I want to preface my remarks by stating that I have been bombarded by aboriginal people begging for forensic audits on their reserves since that exchange in October. Since that time I have realized that the confusion on this matter clearly lies in Ottawa with the department of Indian affairs which is making up the rules as it goes along.
By that I mean the department first stated that it refused to conduct investigations unless it is requested by the band leadership. I guarantee that no leadership is going to ask to have themselves investigated. Then we heard in the department's own words that forensic audits are extremely expensive and time consuming and a request from a few upset band members would not be enough to warrant one.
I have a message for the minister. It is not just a few band members, it is hundreds, probably thousands. I was just informed last Thursday that a list of 5,500 names from the Yukon to southern Alberta has been collected all asking for help with forensic audits. These people are living in buses, sitting on apple crates, freezing and starving in tarpaper shacks. They are not being frivolous when they ask for forensic audits.
The minister talks of accountability, transparency and working in partnership. She says she is reviewing the management practices of every first nation and that she is allowing the chief to set the minimum standards for accountability practices. Can she not see that this is the problem? The grassroots people say that most chiefs and councils do not have the first clue on how to set standards of accountability.
The minister claims that those who report financial mismanagement will lead to pitting members of the community against one another. This is simply not true. This will bring people together and put them all on a level playing field.
The largest problem today is the fact that the department has repeatedly told the grassroots people that when they have documented proof of financial mismanagement by chief and council to report it to the RCMP. However, in a letter from the commissioner of the RCMP, Phil Murray, he very clearly contradicts this statement. He says that in cases of misappropriation of band funds and/or assets, DIAND will initially review the allegations. Should the department believe an investigation is warranted, it will refer the case to the RCMP for investigation.
There are a few people on one reserve who managed to get hold of some documents. They did those things very secretively. I would not disclose who they were because they would be in real trouble with their chief and council. The documents were a list of social payments made to members of a band every month for two to three years.
I looked at these documents and noticed that a few hundred dollars was being paid to the odd member from the band from time to time. Then every month one or two names would get a cheque for $8,000, or $9,000, or $4,000. When I looked at that I wondered why those people would be getting so much compared to what the rest of them were on the lists. Then they produced death certificates. One of the people who were getting these cheques had been dead for 13 years. Not being an expert, I thought it looked a little suspicious that a dead person would be receiving that much money every month.
The band members and I went to the RCMP. We showed them the documents and the RCMP agreed that there was probably something serious here. The RCMP in turn sent it to commercial crimes in Edmonton which looked at it and notified me a few days later that there was insufficient evidence to carry on an investigation. In other words the department must not have agreed to it and told the RCMP to back off.
This whole system needs cleaning up. I would encourage the member across the way who is going to respond to me that he get out and check with his Winnipeg Coalition for Accountability Group. Let them explain the problems to him.