Debates of Feb. 17th, 1999

The Budget

[An hon. member]

It is true. It is true.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Instead of trying to knock everyone flat with his empty figures, will the Minister of Finance acknowledge that in the end—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. We will hear the question from the member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, instead of trying to knock everyone flat with his empty figures, will the Minister of Finance acknowledge that in the end the effect of his budget yesterday is $33 billion in cumulative cuts to social and health programs and that the amounts announced represent only a fraction, a small fraction, of the cuts established in his 1995 budget?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, empty figures? One point four billion in the next four weeks represents empty figures? Six billion dollars of new money over five years represents empty figures? That counts for nothing?

The math of the Bloc Quebecois is clear now. They understand nothing at all. This is money that will go to create jobs. This is money that will improve health. This is money that will go to help all Quebeckers. And it is too bad for the Bloc Quebecois, but Canada works.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the finance minister. Yesterday Conrad who happens to be a millionaire got $8,000. John who is single and earns $40,000 a year got $115, barely enough to buy his bus passes, and Marika who is homeless got absolutely nothing.

John and Marika want to know why Conrad deserves so much while they deserve so little.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know who Conrad is but perhaps the leader of the NDP would introduce me to her friend.

Perhaps I could quote from Roy who is the leader of the NDP in Saskatchewan. Roy says that the budget is good news. We should call it what it is.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians wanted a fair budget. They were disappointed.

Florence Sallenav of Montreal expresses this disappointment well, and I quote: “Had the minister lowered the GST, it would have been much more to the point, and everyone, without exception, would have benefited”.

The Minister of Finance preferred to help the rich. Why did he decide to not touch the GST and to forget Mr. and Mrs. Average?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I like the idea of quoting Canadians. I might quote the B.C. minister of health, Penny Priddy, who said “I would give the Minister of Finance a seven, perhaps higher, for the budget”. For her part, B.C. finance minister Joy MacPhail said “It is a good budget”.

This is welcome news for us. We can now join together and address the problems of the health care system.

The only question is: Why does the NDP in Saskatchewan and the NDP in British Columbia understand what a good budget it is but the NDP here does not.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, last year Canadians paid the highest taxes in the G-7. Do you know what? After this year's budget they will still pay the highest taxes in the G-7. Canadians have a negative—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. member for Kings—Hants.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the truth hurts, obviously. Members opposite know that Canadians will continue to pay the highest tax in the G-7 because their government continues to refuse to provide the type of meaningful tax relief that Canadians need.

Canadians need this tax relief now, not tomorrow. Due to high payroll taxes and bracket creep Canadians will actually pay more after this budget than they did before.

Why is the minister practising give and take economics: giving Canadians some tax breaks through the front door but taking them due to bracket creep through the back door?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, bracket creep arises out of the lack of indexation, which arises out of measures introduced by the Tory government some time ago.

One of the things I would like to point out to the hon. member is that as a result of the reductions in taxes in yesterday's budget in fact bracket creep will be more than covered for all Canadians for the next three years.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad the minister mentioned the origins of deindexing tax brackets. That was a deficit reduction measure similar to the GST, similar to free trade. The minister is not backing away from those—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. member for Kings—Hants.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Now that the minister is saying he has eliminated the 3% surtax, another deficit reduction measure, why does he not reindex tax brackets now to ensure that Canadians can actually get a tax break when he forgets to give one?

The fact is that this minister has used the GST, has used free trade and has used the 3% surtax to do what they were intended to do, to pay down the deficit, but the deficit is paid off. Now will the minister give Canadians the real tax—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. Colleagues, I appeal to your sense of fairness. We must be able to hear the questions and I am hopeful we can hear the answers.

I do not want to single out any members of parliament, but surely we deserve to be able to hear the questions and the answers. I ask you again, please let the members have a chance to ask their questions and give their answers.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the only way we could be fair is if we did not hear the questions.

As I understand it, the deindexation was introduced as an anti-deficit matter. The deficit at that time was $24 billion. After they introduced it, it went to $42 billion. God knows if they had introduced others what would happen.

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, when Liberals cut health care by billions of dollars they did it by saying “we had an emergency, the deficit”. They chose to take a money emergency and turn it into a medical emergency. The result is the Manitoba farmer who just had to go to the Mayo Clinic because he could not find a surgeon in his province.

Is the Prime Minister prepared to guarantee, now that he has done this fabulous business of putting money back into medicare, that farmer will not have to go to the U.S. any more?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, the $3.5 billion that was announced in yesterday's budget is available to the provinces immediately to help them resolve the issues as they wish within their provinces. We want to ensure that people have access to the care and services they need when they need them and where they need them.

The increase in the base of the CHST to $15 billion by the end of year three will help ensure the sustainability of health services in this country into the next millennium.