Mr. Speaker, I would like to talk about the motion put forward by the Bloc Quebecois. I will explain later on what led my colleagues in the Bloc to move this motion.
As I have already told the Bloc critic, I am going to do a little bit of nit-picking. I get the impression this motion was prepared in some hurry, on the eve of the first ministers' meeting in Ottawa.
This motion is not the best the Bloc has ever moved. It is incomplete. They use the word “unconditionally”, but what they say and what they mean is not the same thing. What they mean is this: without any new condition related to the social union. They should have spelled this out.
The message we get is: without any new condition, but under the existing rules. The Bloc did not do its homework as well as it should have. There is something missing. They wrote the motion in a hurry.
Since the budget will be brought down soon, Bloc members thought “Here, we should be dealing with health care”. However, they do not mention any amount. Do they want to have $6 billion more for the provinces or $2 billion? Should it be over two, three, or five years? Do they want to restore funding to its former level in one shot or over a five year period, as the health ministers said last year?
We do not know the answers to these questions, and the Bloc has nobody but itself to blame for that. They will have to say they will do a better job drafting a motion the next time.
However, I think our New Democratic friend went a little far. I do not know whether he got the order not to support the Bloc any more, but I think he went a bit far in saying “We cannot support the motion because it goes against this and that”.
I think my New Democratic colleague has gone a bit far in his analysis in an effort to justify his refusal to support the Bloc Quebecois motion. We are going to support the Bloc Quebecois motion and we could perhaps help them write future motions for opposition days, if necessary.
In the future, I think the drafting could be a little more professional. Here again, I disagree with my New Democratic colleague, who said “We will not support that because it does not honour existing agreements”. I think this is going a bit far too.
I would like to say why we are debating this today. The budget is of course coming up in a few weeks. The provinces, Quebeckers and Canadians have called for more money in the health care system. The Liberal government has reduced its deficit by doing two things: cutting transfers to the provinces and taxing people an additional $20 billion or $25 billion. The federal government spent nearly $35 billion more than in 1993-94. It is spending more.
If there are surpluses, somebody somewhere coughed up more money. As far as conditions are concerned, we agree with most Canadians that new conditions cannot be imposed on the provinces for health transfers. This is the federal government's idea. Just this morning I was telling one of my colleagues in the Bloc Quebecois that this did not make sense, especially since the government is not behaving properly on the EI issue.
If every new dollar transferred to the provinces has to go to health, by the same token could we say that every new dollar paid into the EI fund has to go to EI and not end up in the government's coffers? As you can see, this could backfire.
What we know, and I think this was the main reason for the Bloc Quebecois' motion, is that there is a first ministers meeting in Ottawa today. This thing about conditions came up after the Saskatoon agreement. In a letter, the federal government said “Accountability now requires you to make a commitment to put every new dollar transferred toward health care and to publicly state how happy you are that the federal government is giving you money, and that all is well and the Prime Minister is a nice guy”.
What we suspect is that, thankfully, this letter will finally be taken out of the package put before the provincial premiers, the territorial leaders and the Prime Minister this morning. It called for a commitment from the provinces to agree that future transfer payments would be put toward health.
It is in that context that, today, they are discussing the conditional transfer of any new money that may be transferred. But we have to monitor what is going on right now, because—as I said earlier—we have reason to believe, based on what we heard here and there, that the issue of the social union, and more specifically health, will be discussed today. Will the amount of money be set today? I do not think so, because it would look very bad if the Minister of Finance were to officially allocate money for health before bringing down his budget, in a few weeks.
It seems the federal government will be giving back between $2 billion and $2.5 billion, over a period of two to three years. Whether it will be over two years or three, and whether the amount will be $2 billion or $2.5 billion is what is being negotiated right now. But, the decision will surely only be announced in the budget, not today.
So, negotiations are taking place today on the social union, and more specifically on health, on the Saskatoon agreement and on a new federal offer made yesterday. That offer provides, among other things, that rules would be set regarding the new transfers for health, but that there would also be a right to opt out, jointly funded programs, and so on.
What is dangerous though is that, in spite of what is going on in the four areas of the social union, namely social services, education, social assistance and health, the federal government is prepared to keep its sword of Damocles dangling over our heads, that is its direct spending power. This power means the federal government can spend directly when the money goes to individuals. If the money goes to the provinces, there is a right to opt out, as in the case of health, pharmacare or jointly funded programs.
Where the danger lies in the health care field, and one of the reasons we are going to support the Bloc Quebecois motion, is that we do not want any new conditions. We need to go further still and say that we are not in agreement with the federal government's having direct power to intervene in the daily lives of the people in health, education, social services and social assistance. There is a danger of this becoming a stumbling block today. I hope people will be able to agree that this administrative agreement, which is negotiable—not a constitutional change, merely an agreement that dates back only about five years, it would appear—will be something that can evolve and continue to be viable, so that we can avoid having a repetition of the millennium scholarship situation, or in other words direct federal programs in the areas of health, social assistance and education.
It is important to restrict the federal government, particularly a Liberal one, because the Liberals want to control everything, unless it gives them problems. Then they give it to the provinces, but they want to control the rest so that they can show the flag. I have absolutely nothing against the Canadian flag, I am a federalist. However, propaganda does not serve the interests of the people, only those of one group.
Health is about the public interest. The average Canadian should be the government's first consideration when it makes decisions.
Statistics are all very fine and well, but individuals have to be the priority in the decision-making process. In addition to the revenue and expenditure columns in the federal government's budget, there should be a third equally, if not more, important column representing the people who live in this country, in Quebec, in Ontario, and throughout Canada.
It is time for an increase in health transfers. It is time for the ground rules to be clarified. There are disputes about jurisdiction. It is time that a serious look was taken at the political, administrative and even legal aspects of the situation so that a start can be made on simplifying the entire jurisdictional process in this country.
We will be supporting the Bloc Quebecois motion. It is slightly incomplete, but we will be supporting the Bloc Quebecois and almost all the opposition parties who are asking the government for more health care dollars, without new conditions, and without delay.